Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 194

Chatte · 05/15/09, 3:06 PM

Using the spreadsheet with my current gear (puts me at 6329 AP and 44.5% crit) and adding a 4rth terrorblade piece I get 5510 damage done by a 4cp rupture versus 6687 damage for 5 cp. The difference being 1177 damage done.

Using the cheapest move to gain that 5th cp (shiv) which can no longer crit, I would think the energy loss is better spent on a faster mutilate afterwards and would yield more dps over time. It is arguable that a 5 cp finisher yields a higher percentage of relentlessness proc but I dont think its enough to justify having to wait longer to build another finisher.

Beefyfife · 05/15/09, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chatte

Using the spreadsheet with my current gear (puts me at 6329 AP and 44.5% crit) and adding a 4rth terrorblade piece I get 5510 damage done by a 4cp rupture versus 6687 damage for 5 cp. The difference being 1177 damage done.

Using the cheapest move to gain that 5th cp (shiv) which can no longer crit, I would think the energy loss is better spent on a faster mutilate afterwards and would yield more dps over time. It is arguable that a 5 cp finisher yields a higher percentage of relentlessness proc but I dont think its enough to justify having to wait longer to build another finisher.

Have you tried switching up to 51/7/13 for 30% more damage of rupture, provided you were still hit capped and running those numbers?

Chatte · 05/15/09, 3:21 PM

Well I did not originally but after testing it in the spreesheet I come up with a similar offset between a 4cp rupture and a 5 cp rupture (1230), again this value seems underwhelming compared to putting out a faster mutilate/envenom finisher.

Surprisingly the serrated blade build only yields me a 15dps increase. Rupture accounts for 753 dps compared to 617 using the standard 51/13/7 build.

Zietan · 05/15/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

Shadowpanther is still sorting stuff out, and his dagger charts are screwy since he has two of them, and one is still using the old mutilate formula. Other gear he has listed is still questionable in priority since my spreadsheet showed dps loss when equipping one of his "upgrades". His site is still pretty good for gear planning but try spreadsheeting first before making quest reward choices. There are a few where the reward is a fist, sword, or dagger, and the choice is a bit rough unless you know exactly how you're going to spec through 80. His quandary is the difference of specs and the viability of both, combat sword/dagger needs a different oh dagger than a mut build, but one sheet of weapons can't illustrate that, so he's probably going to have to make separate sheets for different specs.

Make no mistake, Blizz wants you to use 1.8 daggers, there are more of them than any other in wotlk.

Just wondering how there being more 1.8 weapons makes them a better choice? I find that with two fast weapons i proc more with berserking (Im pretty sure it was in the patch notes that weapon procs are based on weapon speed now).
also for a pvp set up would slower weapons be better for putting out dps? Im kind of lost with my Rogue at the moment since gear set up has changed a bit compared to a month or two ago.

chalon · 05/15/09, 4:27 PM

Berserking is a PPM proc, so therefore slower daggers would proc it more since your Mutilates will have a higher chance to proc it...

truepanda · 05/16/09, 12:28 AM

Nevermind, delete this :X

Jesta · 05/17/09, 3:30 PM

Has anyone tried a combat daggers/backstab build?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With this your back stab will have -

+55% damage
15% - Aggression,
10% - Blade twisting,
10% - Surprise attacks,
20% - Opportunity,

+40% chance to crit
30% - Puncturing wounds,
5% - Cruelty,
5% - Close quarters combat,

+50% critical damage
+30% - Lethality
+20% - Prey on the weak

With the stigma that comes with combat daggers I have never seen anyone try this.
They all stick with the cookie cutter builds. Has it been proven less potent already?

saedo · 05/17/09, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jesta

With the stigma that comes with combat daggers I have never seen anyone try this.
They all stick with the cookie cutter builds. Has it been proven less potent already?

It's not a stigma. And buffing one attack to do epeen numbers isn't enough to save the entire spec.

Vigor is useless (for the most part), Relentless Strikes and Lightning Reflexes are too large to simply drop for it.

impatigo · 05/17/09, 4:47 PM

At what point does haste begin to statistically deteriorate and what is the formula to determine this? Further, at what point does haste no longer, if at all, effect PPM? If the PPM is based on a 1.4 speed does this mean that poisons such as instant will not be effected with attack speed buffs lower than 1.4 speed ie; Starlight from Hodir?

ShadowEric · 05/17/09, 5:53 PM

The PPM for poisons depends on your base weapon speed, so having haste it a good thing, since it generates more poison procs. Note that this isn't the case for every PPM mechanic in the game. When people say it's normalized to 1.4, it simply means that for a 1.4 weapon speed, it matches the % of procs before the mechanic change to PPM for poisons (which was 20% for Instant Poison, untalented).

mimplol · 05/18/09, 9:03 AM

hi,
I see a couple of rogues still running around with 2pt6 (belt+boots), claiming this to be superior to most of the other items due to the 5%haste.
i've modeled around a bit, but cant seem to find any combination where this IS superior. ( t7.5/t8 geared)
am i missing something?
thnx.

vaeal · 05/18/09, 11:36 AM

I have a quick question that I can't seem to get a solid response on from some of the high end rogues on my server. When playing mutilate I have access to only two daggers currently: Webbed death (156 dps but 1.4 speed) and spinal destroyer (143 dps and 1.7 speed). Which one is better to put in my main hand (assuming i use wound poison on both weapons for pvp)?

I thought the higher dps weapon should be in main hand regardless of speed because the off hand weapon takes a damage hit but i keep being told that is wrong and the slower weapon should be MH. I am relatively new to rogues and would appreciate any input.

chalon · 05/18/09, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jesta

Has anyone tried a combat daggers/backstab build?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With the stigma that comes with combat daggers I have never seen anyone try this.
They all stick with the cookie cutter builds. Has it been proven less potent already?

First of all, if you were to spec Combat Daggers it wouldn't be the spec you listed. It's possible to spec Combat Daggers, but the DPS of it is lower than the three primary raiding specs. The reason you don't see people spec it is because it's strictly inferior.

Originally Posted by mimplol

hi,
I see a couple of rogues still running around with 2pt6 (belt+boots), claiming this to be superior to most of the other items due to the 5%haste.
i've modeled around a bit, but cant seem to find any combination where this IS superior. ( t7.5/t8 geared)
am i missing something?
thnx.

There was some analysis which was done in early WotLK which suggested that prior to having 213 pieces for both of those slots, you were better off with 2p t6. Once you have a 213 or higher belt/boot, though, the vastly superior itemization overtakes that haste benefit.

Originally Posted by vaeal

I have a quick question that I can't seem to get a solid response on from some of the high end rogues on my server. When playing mutilate I have access to only two daggers currently: Webbed death (156 dps but 1.4 speed) and spinal destroyer (143 dps and 1.7 speed). Which one is better to put in my main hand (assuming i use wound poison on both weapons for pvp)?

I thought the higher dps weapon should be in main hand regardless of speed because the off hand weapon takes a damage hit but i keep being told that is wrong and the slower weapon should be MH. I am relatively new to rogues and would appreciate any input.

Short answer is check the spreadsheet. Long answer is you're probably better off with the slow weapon in your MH. The increased Instant Poison procs will overtake the slightly lower Mutilate damage.

Korlis · 05/18/09, 5:43 PM

I've looked around, and can't seem to find information answering this rather simple question, at least not here...

What's with Wound poison going on the mainhand for raiding rogues?

I'm completely baffled. I hit 80 on my rogue and started raiding, and have been using Instant/wound as Combat. We're only doing 10 man content and have only just started doing ulduar attempts with Razorscale and the Furnace guy. Do I need to be in 25 mans to notice any difference?

• Maestroquark · 05/18/09, 5:51 PM

The basis of Wound/Deadly is that without talents, Wound and Instant scale at the same exact rate - but Wound has higher base damage. It's not until Improved Poisons or Envenom are involved that IP takes over.