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Old 11/17/08, 8:29 AM   #16
Darktangent
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
Does anyone know how much offhand weapon speed factors into DPS? Shadowpanther lists a 1.8 speed dagger as being the best offhand, yet I find this hard to believe given vulajin's post where he speculates that each .1 speed faster = 10 DPS. Specifically, I am comparing blade of savagery to corroded saronite woundbringer. According to the think tank topic on rogue dps, if you have combat potency you should add 10 dps for every .1 faster, and with combat swords spec add 5 dps for every .1 speed faster. Since blade of savagery is .4 speed faster than corroded saronite woundbringer, that adds up to 60 weapon dps. Then there's the stats to consider, which I have no clue how to factor in with weapon dps. I need some sort of point system that includes weapon dps and stats to compare gear, the pve dps thread in the thinktank section is old, and is only for armor not weapons.

Last edited by Darktangent : 11/17/08 at 9:35 AM.

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Old 11/17/08, 10:47 AM   #17
Vonhinten
Banned
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Garona
Question: Totally naked and untalented, equipping a fist weapon increases critical strike by 5%. Why, and is it a bug that is expected to be corrected soon?

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Old 11/17/08, 12:34 PM   #18
 s4dfish
abuses ellipses...
 
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Goblin Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Question: Is Subtlety now a dagger/backstab tree rather than a Hemo tree? No, I don't plan on raiding Subtlety, just curious.

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Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
Whenever I dislike my job, I think of you.

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Old 11/17/08, 12:43 PM   #19
Feist-Mok
It's just a sausage.
 
Feist-Mok's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by s4dfish View Post
Question: Is Subtlety now a dagger/backstab tree rather than a Hemo tree? No, I don't plan on raiding Subtlety, just curious.
From a raiding sub standpoint, it's a 'Spam Eviscerate and who cares what kind of weapons you use' tree.

If you do need to dump energy, backstab is probably better at that than hemo fully talented though.

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Old 11/17/08, 1:36 PM   #20
Rambaral
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Darktangent View Post
Does anyone know how much offhand weapon speed factors into DPS? Shadowpanther lists a 1.8 speed dagger as being the best offhand, yet I find this hard to believe given vulajin's post where he speculates that each .1 speed faster = 10 DPS. Specifically, I am comparing blade of savagery to corroded saronite woundbringer. According to the think tank topic on rogue dps, if you have combat potency you should add 10 dps for every .1 faster, and with combat swords spec add 5 dps for every .1 speed faster. Since blade of savagery is .4 speed faster than corroded saronite woundbringer, that adds up to 60 weapon dps. Then there's the stats to consider, which I have no clue how to factor in with weapon dps. I need some sort of point system that includes weapon dps and stats to compare gear, the pve dps thread in the thinktank section is old, and is only for armor not weapons.
Shadowpanther is still sorting stuff out, and his dagger charts are screwy since he has two of them, and one is still using the old mutilate formula. Other gear he has listed is still questionable in priority since my spreadsheet showed dps loss when equipping one of his "upgrades". His site is still pretty good for gear planning but try spreadsheeting first before making quest reward choices. There are a few where the reward is a fist, sword, or dagger, and the choice is a bit rough unless you know exactly how you're going to spec through 80. His quandary is the difference of specs and the viability of both, combat sword/dagger needs a different oh dagger than a mut build, but one sheet of weapons can't illustrate that, so he's probably going to have to make separate sheets for different specs.

Make no mistake, Blizz wants you to use 1.8 daggers, there are more of them than any other in wotlk.

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Old 11/17/08, 2:36 PM   #21
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Per koaschten's suggestion, here are rough EP values for starting level 80 raiding:

For Mutilate:

StatEP
Str1.1
Agi2.0
Crit1.6
Exp1.9
Haste1.4
ArPen1.0

Hit is worth about 2.2 below the yellow hit cap, 1.8 below the poison hit cap, and 1.3 above both caps.

For Combat:

StatEP
Str1.1
Agi2.0
Crit1.5
Exp1.6
Haste1.4
ArPen1.2

Hit is about 1.8 below the yellow hit cap, 1.6 below the poison hit cap, and 1.4 thereafter.

Note that these values are *extremely* rough, and I make no guarantees that they won't change after we start putting together better models of what's going on. But as something to get you started, this is probably better than nothing.

Edit: Made a slight correction to Mutilate numbers; 1.6 is probably a better valuation for crit than 1.7.

Last edited by Aldriana : 11/17/08 at 8:00 PM.

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Old 11/17/08, 2:53 PM   #22
ohnoes
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Per koaschten's suggestion, here are rough EP values for starting level 80 raiding:

For Mutilate:

StatEP
Str1.1
Agi2.0
Crit1.7
Exp1.9
Haste1.4
ArPen1.0

Hit is worth about 2.2 below the yellow hit cap, 1.8 below the poison hit cap, and 1.3 above both caps.

For Combat:

StatEP
Str1.1
Agi2.0
Crit1.5
Exp1.6
Haste1.4
ArPen1.2

Hit is about 1.8 below the yellow hit cap, 1.6 below the poison hit cap, and 1.4 thereafter.

Note that these values are *extremely* rough, and I make no guarantees that they won't change after we start putting together better models of what's going on. But as something to get you started, this is probably better than nothing.
are you including dodge in those numbers as well(from the agility scale) or are those from a pure dps standpoint?

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Old 11/17/08, 2:56 PM   #23
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
I've made a basic Tricks of the Trade macro that I've found fairly useful:

#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
/cast [help] [target=focus, help] [target=targettarget, help] Tricks of the Trade
Casts Tricks on your target if it's friendly (i.e. you pick a person), and if not - that is, you have a mob or nothing targetted, it checks if you have a friendly focus target, otherwise casts on target of target. General idea is, top priority is you picking someone (say an offtank before a pull), then setting a friendly focus target for it (another rogue), and for just using it, it goes on the tank of the mob you're hitting.

If anyone has recommendations for how it could be made more useful, I'm very open to suggestions, as I'm a fairly novice macro maker.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

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Old 11/17/08, 5:19 PM   #24
Shatosen
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Bonechewer
Was wondering how long it is taking people to kill mobs in WotLK. I am level 75 running 4/5 brutal gear and guardian and kill a mob every 17 seconds with my sub spec. Is this far enough below par that I should respec?

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Old 11/17/08, 5:59 PM   #25
Rambaral
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Shatosen View Post
Was wondering how long it is taking people to kill mobs in WotLK. I am level 75 running 4/5 brutal gear and guardian and kill a mob every 17 seconds with my sub spec. Is this far enough below par that I should respec?
73, Mut spec with a bit different for leveling's sake, mostly T6 and badge gear, mobs die in about 3-8 seconds for me. Sub has never been good for leveling, especially solo. 17 seconds seems painfully long, like prot pally long, unless I'm misinterpreting your post.

Last edited by Rambaral : 11/17/08 at 6:04 PM.

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Old 11/17/08, 6:24 PM   #26
nosille
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Uldaman
In Kara level gear with the badge Offhand and S1 Mainhand, I am killing most mobs in the duration of a Cheap Shot->Kidney Shot chain. I am having problems with Kidney Shot being on cooldown when I need it for the next mob.

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Old 11/17/08, 6:53 PM   #27
Lord Xar
Banned
 
Elbrin
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Non-US/EU Server
As has been noted numerous times, movement is playing a larger role in boss fights. How will this affect our already "lagging" dps vs. hunters/casters and such? We tend to shine with tank/spank fights so with less of those, should we really be defining our 'dps' with optimal conditions that only come about when pluto moves into capricon and its a fullmoon on every second thursday ---

so..

1. Will the uptick of boss fights that require movement infringe additionally in a negative light on our dps?

2. Should we define our dps, not on the very unlikely circumstances, or more of an average?

I just remember reading all these rogues waxing poetic how when they were dual glaived fighting brutallis, they had monster dps -- but when you place them in an any other boss, fight - rogues aren't #1. I only say this because being tops on one single target tank/spank fight does not define a damage dealer, or even two boss fights - for that matter.

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Old 11/17/08, 8:14 PM   #28
Snix
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Uldum
Will the Rupture buff from the talents Bloodspatter (@ 2/2=20%) and Serrated Blades (@3/3=30%) stack?

If so what would the final percentage be, additive 50% or 56% if they are applied one on top of the other?

Or are they mutually exclusive?

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Old 11/17/08, 8:30 PM   #29
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
I don't have explicit proof, but it is expected that they stack in a fashion similar to that of Find Weakness / Surprise Attacks / etc., that is to say that they apply additively for a total 50% boost.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 11/17/08, 8:32 PM   #30
Feist-Mok
It's just a sausage.
 
Feist-Mok's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I've made a basic Tricks of the Trade macro that I've found fairly useful:

#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
/cast [help] [target=focus, help] [target=targettarget, help] Tricks of the Trade
Casts Tricks on your target if it's friendly (i.e. you pick a person), and if not - that is, you have a mob or nothing targetted, it checks if you have a friendly focus target, otherwise casts on target of target. General idea is, top priority is you picking someone (say an offtank before a pull), then setting a friendly focus target for it (another rogue), and for just using it, it goes on the tank of the mob you're hitting.

If anyone has recommendations for how it could be made more useful, I'm very open to suggestions, as I'm a fairly novice macro maker.
/focus [button:2,help]
Will allow you to use the same macro to set your focus w/ a right click.
Being able to override focus for ToT with a modifier is something I'm playing around to figure out, but would be really nice.

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