So what most of you guys do? do you guys pool energy for all the finishers? what I do is i refresh HfB when it has like 1 sec left. I rupture whenever i have 4 or 5 combos and that the old one is gone. For envenom, I either wait until SnD is nearly gone or my energy is being full. Am I doing the right thing or should I envenom whenever i get a chance.
You do it right. This way your DP stack can get some more ticks. But you shouldn't wait till your energy is at maximum to avoid clipping.
The main reason is that the crit from Agility doesn't increase poison damage, and the negative scaling of the crit to agi conversion to level 80 has distinctly diminished the stat's value relative to it's item budget cost. This is especially true for Mutilate because so much of Mutilates damage is derived from Poison.
Really appreciate the response. I was always under the impression that Agi would be far superior for Muti since the increased crit would help make the "rotation" smoother. Thanks again.
Due to the recent discovery (if thats what it should be called) that mutilate procs the offhand twice, I have to switch from Omen of Ruin/Anarchy to Anarchy/Omen of Ruin. However, would the paper cutter in the OH be a better choice? And would keeping Omen of Ruin in the MH with the LBC in the oh (or reversed) be better still? Since the extra procs are not currently in a spreadsheet and I have no access to WoW at the moment to test it for myself, what would the best option be?
I've seen the question asked a few times, but have yet to see a response. Being curious myself, I'll ask again. I've noticed a trend of people gemming AP (Bright) as opposed to Agi (Delicate). This is even more common among Muti rogues. Are there distinct advantages to gem AP instead of Agi? I try to read most posts, but maybe I've missed something. So if this has been covered already, my apologies in advance. Thanks.
Also, for Combat Builds, Save Combat increases our total Attack Power, so gemming AP makes sense for us too.
ok - i'v been reading the debates/stats (numbers confuse me, very bad at number crunching) about which build is better than the other for raiding. so, which is it? i cant decide if its combat or mutilate, and today i saw a subtlety spec doing almost 6k dps (link is in pocket guide thread).
so where do the builds stand? tbc combat was the better choice for raiding - but now it seems that all 3 trees are equally good?
ok - i'v been reading the debates/stats (numbers confuse me, very bad at number crunching) about which build is better than the other for raiding. so, which is it? i cant decide if its combat or mutilate, and today i saw a subtlety spec doing almost 6k dps (link is in pocket guide thread).
so where do the builds stand? tbc combat was the better choice for raiding - but now it seems that all 3 trees are equally good?
Short answer: yes.
Long answer:
The difference between Mutilate and Combat lays with whether a mob is Murderable or not, and also depends largely on the players' skill for Mutilate to keep up HfB.
Sub (upto 43-44 points) currently works well in raids due to low-end weaponry and some bug in HaT mechanics. As weapondamage improves and bugs get fixed, expect Combat and Mutilate to outscale HaT quickly. Eviscerates and Ruptures simply don't scale with base weapondamage while Sinister Strikes and Mutilates do. Also note that as haste rating on gear gradually improves, whether you're looking for it or not, mutilate and combat builds benefit more from it due to talent mechanics relying on auto-swings.
ok - i'v been reading the debates/stats (numbers confuse me, very bad at number crunching) about which build is better than the other for raiding. so, which is it? i cant decide if its combat or mutilate, and today i saw a subtlety spec doing almost 6k dps (link is in pocket guide thread).
so where do the builds stand? tbc combat was the better choice for raiding - but now it seems that all 3 trees are equally good?
Combat and Mutilate are close. Really close.
Murder turns out to be a "tie-breaker" of sorts. If you are up against a murderable boss, Mutilate should win. Against a non-murderable, it pretty much depends on gear.
HaT's DPS is extremely dependent on a number of factors. including the group make up, buffs, and of course how GOOD the players in your party are (it won't do if two of them are dead before the fight ends). When it's performing at it's best, it is better than the alternatives... but the damage can really dip if something is ideal.
My 10man raid features 2 rogues, 20/51/0 and 15/51/5. Due to gear (I hope) they're not doing an awful lot of damage, around 1700 dps on patchwerk. This isn't a huge problem though since our elemental shaman, hunter and myself as feral (while not OT'ing) compensate for damage rather good.
Now my question. Since we have 2 rouges, is there any way to squeeze at least a little synergy out of them? I'm quite a rouge newb, never having played one myself. Browsing through the talent trees I find hemorrhage and master poisoner both providing a little for the rest of the raid. Are any of these valuable raidbuffs? Hemorrhage made me curious, but it appears as the extra physical damage doesn't increase with spellrank. If those buffs are marginal they should just play what they want, but maybe we are just wasting some decent raidbuffs for having them both use the same build.
Group consists of Rogue,Rogue, Feral OT (myself), Hunter, Warrior MT, Warlock, Ele.Shaman, Mage and Shaman and Priest for healing, if that matters.
I hope you don't consider this a stupid question of any sort :\
Last edited by Goretusk : 12/08/08 at 12:28 PM.
Reason: typo
Goretusk, this isn't a stupid question, but definitely not a simple one. It would help a lot if you could provide the armory links for these rogues.
In regards to your question about specs, Master Poisoner is usually skipped because it doesn't stack with Heart of the Crusader (Retridin) and Hemo in 10 mans isn't as valuable as it is in 25's. A lot of it depends on raid make-up.
Goretusk, this isn't a stupid question, but definitely not a simple one. It would help a lot if you could provide the armory links for these rogues.
In regards to your question about specs, Master Poisoner is usually skipped because it doesn't stack with Heart of the Crusader (Retridin) and Hemo in 10 mans isn't as valuable as it is in 25's. A lot of it depends on raid make-up.
I'll rather provide you with a wws tracked run, it probably contains the most information.Wow Web Stats
The more I think about Hemorrhage the better it looks. Is it up all the time?
Naxxramas - Zone - World of Warcraft will show you that in Naxxramas for example all but Grand Widow Faerlina (Humanoid) and Maexxna (Beast) are not murderable because they are undead.
Malygos, Sartharion + adds are all Dragonkin, Archavon is by definition a Giant and as a result murderable too.
So basically its 16 non-murderable bosses and 8 murderable bosses.
Why do my sheets always show the two daggers and Mut spec coming out as the best DPS? It just seems so strange to me the BoE blues surpass those epics.
Furthermore, it's also strange that the next optimal setup after that, is Crimson Steel & Librarian's Paper Cutter in Combat spec. Again, the two Nax swords proving to be useless, despite having better stats on paper.
Does Mutilate spec really dictate what weapons are best to this degree? Or is it something to do with my stats or a botched setting in my sheets? I have most buffs turned off, due to the variety of changing buffs I'm getting, and the sheet is showing is 2810dps Mut > 2790dps Combat.
I recently switched to mutilate and was playing around with different builds and rotations both in game and on the spreadsheet.
What I found was this:
On an 80 dummy using Rupture/envenom, my dps went up 100 over combat
On an 80 dummy spamming envenom every 4-5CP my dps went up 450 over combat, and 350 over the previous rotation.
On an 80 boss dummy, my DPS went up about 75 over combat using rupture/envenom cycle.
On an 80 boss dummy spamming envenom 4+cp, my dps went up 175 over combat and 100 over the previous rotation.
So my question is, is it always better to spam envenom, or am I doing something that I shouldn't that makes spamming envenom superior to a rupture/envenom cycle? My reason for asking this is because I see a lot of mutilate rogues with blood splatter in their spec. I assume that I am doing something wrong, or maybe the damage efficiency on rupture surpasses envenom when raid buffed, but my spreadsheet has envenom ahead of envenom/rupture with raid buffs.
Edit: Just wanted to note that all of this was done unbuffed.
Anyone have any suggestions as to if mirror of truth or T7 gloves, I'm trying to decide which one is best of a upgrade first and i'm leaning more towards the trinket, I do however already have my t7 pants so i'm wondering if that might help some too.
I recently switched to mutilate and was playing around with different builds and rotations both in game and on the spreadsheet.
What I found was this:
On an 80 dummy using Rupture/envenom, my dps went up 100 over combat
On an 80 dummy spamming envenom every 4-5CP my dps went up 450 over combat, and 350 over the previous rotation.
On an 80 boss dummy, my DPS went up about 75 over combat using rupture/envenom cycle.
On an 80 boss dummy spamming envenom 4+cp, my dps went up 175 over combat and 100 over the previous rotation.
So my question is, is it always better to spam envenom, or am I doing something that I shouldn't that makes spamming envenom superior to a rupture/envenom cycle? My reason for asking this is because I see a lot of mutilate rogues with blood splatter in their spec. I assume that I am doing something wrong, or maybe the damage efficiency on rupture surpasses envenom when raid buffed, but my spreadsheet has envenom ahead of envenom/rupture with raid buffs.
Edit: Just wanted to note that all of this was done unbuffed.
You're doing something wrong. Using rupture properly in a mutilate build *will* yield more dps, but it is much trickier to play properly than just spamming envenom. As an example, when I first tested the new mutilate specs out at 70 in 3.0, my dps went up about 4 or 500 once I got the logic down.
Check the pocket guide for more info, but you should basically see an improvement if you do this:
1) refresh hfb every 29/30 seconds, and make sure you do't let it drop (ie refresh it earlier if you know you will be incapacitated when you would otherwise need to refresh it, ensure you have 30 energy to refresh, etc).
2) Envenom (or eviscerate if deadly poison isn't up) if slice and dice is about to fall, never let snd drop.
3) rupture when you have 4 or more combo points and the first two criteria will be safely satisifed if you rupture.
4) envenom whenever you can and will keep up the first 3 criteria.
If you have 4+ combo points, and rupture is going to end in < 5 seconds, just wait and auto attack until rupture falls or you're about to cap energy, then refresh it.
Why do my sheets always show the two daggers and Mut spec coming out as the best DPS? It just seems so strange to me the BoE blues surpass those epics.
Furthermore, it's also strange that the next optimal setup after that, is Crimson Steel & Librarian's Paper Cutter in Combat spec. Again, the two Nax swords proving to be useless, despite having better stats on paper.
Does Mutilate spec really dictate what weapons are best to this degree? Or is it something to do with my stats or a botched setting in my sheets? I have most buffs turned off, due to the variety of changing buffs I'm getting, and the sheet is showing is 2810dps Mut > 2790dps Combat.
If the spreadsheet shows you values that close, I personally would use the Crimson Steel and LPC in a 7/51/13 Combat Fist build. 20dps under ideal situations, is not, in my opinion, worth the trouble of HFB and the inflexibility of mutilate on fights with adds and interruption. Do not forget the non calculated extra damage Blade Flurry+Killing Spree+Slow Mainhand FoK can bring with a combat build on multi target fights.
I used to love working out every aspect of my class, knowing which spec was best, using the wonderfull spreadsheets and theorycrafting that where posted here. Right now I'm doing my best but knowing that even if I get everything perfect I'm going to be massively out damaged by other classes is draining my love for the class and game.
My question is, out of the more respected players here, who's going to step up to the plate and post a thread showing what the problems are, where others can post their WWS reports. Much as all the work everyone puts in here is great and valuable it seems to me theres very little point in working out tweaks to what seems to be a broken class in terms of raid dps.
Blizzards recent changes are just bizarre, like the increased boss armour, making our lacklustre dps even worse. I remember the begining of TBC and just how much effort we had to put in to get them to acknowledge and fix the problems.
This time around they're telling us that our dps is fine when it quite blatantly is not.
Rogue damage is not a stand alone issue, it has to be taken in comparison to other classes in terms of damage output.
Last edited by Cirocco : 12/08/08 at 2:02 PM.
Reason: typo
I used to love working out every aspect of my class, knowing which spec was best, using the wonderfull spreadsheets and theorycrafting that where posted here. Right now I'm doing my best but knowing that even if I get everything perfect I'm going to be massively out damaged by other classes is draining my love for the class and game.
My question is, out of the more respected players here, who's going to step up to the plate and post a thread showing what the problems are, where others can post their WWS reports. Much as all the work everyone puts in here is great and valuable it seems to me theres very little point in working out tweaks to what seems to be a broken class in terms of raid dps.
Blizzards recent changes are just bizarre, like the increased boss armour, making our lacklustre dps even worse. I remember the begining of TBC and just how much effort we had to put in to get them to acknoledge and fix the problems.
This time around they're tell us that our dps is fine when it quite blatantly is not.
Rogue damage is not a stand alone issue, it has to be taken in comparison to other classes in terms of damage output.
There are things to keep in mind when comparing dps amongst classes as well.
The fight commonly used in reference to how imbalanced the dps classes are is patchwerk, where in the top kills, hunters and mages seem to be dominant compared to rogues, etc. There may be a slight advantage, but that advantage is exacerbated due to the short length of the fight (as low as 2.5 min in some cases). The shorter the fight is, the more effect cooldown usage has on the overall dps. Hunters and mages in particular have a large part of their sustained dps due to cooldown usage, so when stacked with heroism/bloodlust on a short fight, they get a lot of synergy and have their cds in use for a significant portion of the fight.
Drag that fight out to 5 minutes and you'll see rogues a lot closer (mutilate, in particular). I noticed on one of those parses there was a combat rogue hundreds of dps ahead of a similarly geared mutilate rogue in his guild... that is because of the same reasoning... combat rogues depend more on adren rush/blade flurry/killing spree for their dps, while cooldowns barely affect mutilate dps.
Scary things happen when masses cry nerf or buff or whatever based on limited information in a very narrow setting.
If you want to jump in DPS discussions, there is a lot of it going on at the Official WoW Forums in the Damage Dealing class role forums based on current WWS data from varying sources.
My own take on it currently is that Rogue damage is sub-par especially it being probably the purest DPS class in the game. But we have to wait for more data and also wait for everybody in a raid to be T7 geared (so we have a better idea of how the classes scale with better gear) before jumping into that.
Why do my sheets always show the two daggers and Mut spec coming out as the best DPS? It just seems so strange to me the BoE blues surpass those epics.
Furthermore, it's also strange that the next optimal setup after that, is Crimson Steel & Librarian's Paper Cutter in Combat spec. Again, the two Nax swords proving to be useless, despite having better stats on paper.
Does Mutilate spec really dictate what weapons are best to this degree? Or is it something to do with my stats or a botched setting in my sheets? I have most buffs turned off, due to the variety of changing buffs I'm getting, and the sheet is showing is 2810dps Mut > 2790dps Combat.
To echo the guy above me, I've been using Crimson Steel / LPC since I got the fist (was using Fist of the Deity before) and I'm doing pretty well with it. I have to agree with him that (to me, at least) combat's utility and perks outweigh the "ideal" advantage mutilate has. Combat is far, far superior for anything but Patchwerk-style situations, you don't have to fool with HfB, and it's got the fun bug with Killing Spree atm (if you use Glyph of Adrenaline Rush, Killing Spree gets the reduction too, giving you 1 minute Killing Spree cd. I'm using SS/Rupture/Adre Rush glyphs).
I find ToTT -> Fan of Knives -> Blade Flurry -> Killing Spree INCREDIBLY useful in any boss fights involving trash control / trash dps, plus it can really boost your damage in any fight with more than a single target, which is surprising amount of bosses in naxx (Anub'Rekhan,Faerlina arguably, Maexxna for spiders, Noth, Gothik, Grobbulus, Gluth, KT).
Plus if you have the extra points, you can pick up Throwing Spec and get extra interrupts for fights like Kel'Thuzad. Been using Fan of Knives as an emergency backup interrupt, which is sort of a waste of energy but nice in a pinch.
That said, the gap is bigger when you look at a gear set with full t7 gear and KT weapons (if you run 25s and get Sinister Revenge + Webbed Death for mutilate, for example), but Combat's a lot more fun to me with the toys it has now.
12/06/08, 9:34 PM
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