Yeah, I can understand the frustration. Hopefully they'll itemize more intelligently for swords in Ulduar.

If you can get your hands on a Hailstorm, it's a great OH with sword spec, but I believe Crimson Steel would still beat out any of the other swords available besides the 25-man Naxx trash drop.

question: for a combat/CQC rogue, does having Mirror of Truth and prey on the weak with cqc and malice, make 15/51/5 with 5/5 lethality superior to 7/51/13? lethality only affects sinister strike crit damage for combat right? also does rupture crit or not? im getting conflicting answers from people on this, idk why, it either does or doesnt.
is there a point at which a high-crit combat cqc rogue would get more dps from a talented glyphed eviscerate than 7/51/13 rupture? (i know rupture used to be always superior to eviscerate, is this still the case or does it depend on spec and glyphs?)
with the above trinket and talents, assuming evisc. could be viable, what value does crit rating have relative to attack power and at what crit % does adding more crit have no effect on proc rate of mirror of truth?

thanks for all your hard work

Assuming SS is the only combo move you're using as combat, then that would be the only talent affected by Lethality.

Rupture cannot crit.

I'd play around with the spreadsheet to answer your last question.

One of the main values of rupture is that it costs less energy than eviscerate as well. This gives it a higher damage per energy.

I can't answer all your questions, but I'd expect 15/51/5 to pull ahead in later content as SS scales up well with weapon damage and Rupture does not. With current gear I believe 7/51/13 is slightly better?

Currently, 7/51/13 seems to provide slightly superior DPS compared to 15/51/5, this is both from Spreadsheets and also from in-game DPS that I have done.

As to whether Eviscerate pulls ahead of Rupture at some point in time will depend on what kind of itemization Blizzard goes for with T8. It is entirely possible that if we can achieve high crit with CQC, and maybe some revamp in Imp. Eviscerate it would become better. As of now, DPE from Rupture is better than from Eviscerate.

Not really. Hit does have more value below it, and less value above certain caps. Use a spreadsheet to figure out what's best for you based on your current gear set.

We'll my problem is im at the point where I could get 400 hit rating or 131 and lots of agility armor penetration haste and atk power and i'm not really sure whats the common sense midpoint of it all. Is 131 with 5/5 precision sortve the golden ratio and the rest of the stats i chose not really matter much?

Not so much, it's just that hit is one of your best stats until that point at which it's still good, just not AS good. If you really don't want to use the spreadsheets you can go by the AEP values people put up for pre/after hit caps and try to weight things in your head that way, but generally we've moved away from the olden days when Hit was all you wanted until some cap and more to the vein of Best Item regardless, unless it's super heavy on a stat we value slightly less, like ArPen.

i.e., Don't stack hit to the detriment of everything else.

Alright thanks, I'll prettymuch just use whatever itemI have that has a higher armor value, typically higher lvl item and ill just assume better stats for me

What's wrong with using the tools we've mentioned?

i dont really understand how to use a spreadsheet or what one is exactally

Mutilate OH double procs poisons. Might be a bug that'll be fixed later, but for now, to take advantage of this, OH the fast one.

If they are all with exact stats and dps with only difference in speed. Then yes, fast/fast,would probably be the best, then slow/fast. Reality won't be that way though, speed is not the only stat to look at.


Start here: The Roguecraft Spreadsheet

Have you changed the cycle? I get more dps with 15/51/5 by switching to 3s/5r/5e (instead of 5 all). Ruthlessness is making the difference here.

I've noticed an increase in DPS speccing 7/51/13 with a 4s/5r cycle on the spreadsheet, though I'm at a loss as to what to do for the other 15 seconds of the cycle. 4s/5r with both glyphs is going to give a huge empty zone in the middle, which the only thing that comes to mind is either wasting CPs or throwing an eviscerate in there, neither of which I believe that cycle is suggesting for me.

The easiest way to explain it is:
1.You want to maximize your instant poison procrate, so you put it on the fastest dagger you can. Faster daggers also have more opportunities to crit for Focused Attacks.
2. Because finishers could also proc that poison if it was in the mainhand but NOT if it was in the offhand, the original idea was to put the fast weapon in the mainhand so finishers would proc IP (which was on the fast weapon in the first place for more procs).
3. Once we figured out that Mutilate had a double chance to proc offhand poisons, which outweighs the finisher bonus for Mutilate since you Mutilate more than you Envenom or Rupture, the advice swapped, since you want a double chance to proc Instant Poison and it's on your fast dagger, so now you want your "fast dagger" in the offhand for double proc chance on Mutilates.

So there's the reasoning. Fast/Fast may still be better in the mainhand if the net gain of instant poison procs outweighs the DPS and statistical gains of a slower weapon (and mutilate damage boost). It was observed that 2x Webbed Death was competitive with Sinister Revenge/Webbed Death at one point, I don't know if that's still true, but the basic idea being all those extra Instant Poison procs on the 1.4 spd would outweigh the extra dps gained by using a slower weapon for Mutilates + the extra DPS on the Sinister Revenge.

The fast and loose guide might be:
MH - Best possible dagger, though speed may outweigh DPS and stats.
OH - Fastest possible dagger, but don't sacrifice too much. Use the spreadsheet in ambiguous cases, but something like the Librarian's Paper Cutter vs. Knife of Incision should be clear cut since your gains (10 white dps for the offhand, some stats) aren't going to come close to shaving .5 speed off your offhand attacks for poison procs and chances for Focused Attacks.

For what it's worth, I just plugged some stuff into the spreadsheet and fast is still the way to go in both hands for equal weapons (I tried deadly glad shanker v shiv in the mh). Dual webbed death was about 20 dps lower than sinister mh, webbed oh.

Patchwerk, a non moving boss, should be and is our best case scenario for a fight. Anything that involves movement and running in and out of the usual anti melee poo that blizzard throw around bosses make us much worse.

People in the WWS reports I've seen are now geared in Naxx gear, so that line of "It'll get better when you get gear" that we've been spoonfed for a while no longer holds water. Just how long are we supposed to want to keep playing this game before it gets better? Next raid dungeon, raid after that?

"Scary things happen when masses cry nerf or buff or whatever based on limited information in a very narrow setting."
Except it's not really that limited now is it? I'm not asking for the "masses" to cry buff, what I was asking for is for the people who might get listened to to simply say "Yes there is a problem".

Time to start asking questions like. Why do they feel it's necessary to increase boss armour by 10% when rogues where already doing sub par dps. It's definitely not time to be complacent and say "Wait and see". We've waited and we've seen.

Question about Expose Armor - I switched over to a DK as my main, so we no longer have ready Sunder while doing Heroics. Is it worthwhile for my Rogue buddy to use EA on bosses, or is that going to lower his dps? He's Assassination at the moment, would the answer differ if he were Combat, or is it an always good/always bad proposition?

In heroics, depends. Fights are usually too short to get much use out of it. A mutilate rogue would have more ease keeping it up though. It will lower his dps relative to others, but if there's a couple physical dps around, overall group dps would be better for those longer fights.

Hello, I just recently specced 15/51/5 with 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword spec. I am using Kel'Thuzad's Reach mainhand and Hatestrike offhand. Right before I went to bed last night I was hitting a target dummy to just get a feel for my cycle and CP generation. I noticed after hitting the dummy for awhile my sword spec procs seemed to be using my offhand weapon. I was under the impression that the sword spec procs from my offhand would use my mainhand weapon to make the extra attack. When I looked at recount my sword spec procs seemed to clearly be using my offhand weapon to make the attacks based on the damage ranges reported in recount, for example average damage around 300's and crits around 700, which is not the damage I would be doing with my mainhand.

This is a SS of my recount:


This brings me to my question, have the mechanics for sword spec been changed? Or am I simply
misunderstanding how the talent works. I only started playing my rogue since Wotlk hit so I'm not
sure.

If somebody can help clarify this I would greatly appreciate it, and if I need to post more data of this I
will try to get some later tonight.

As has been covered in this thread multiple times, this is a bug with recount. Sword Spec procs your main hand, even under conditions where this makes no sense. The combat log reports that a sword spec proc happened but not which attack it was. Recount makes a guess, and usually gets it wrong.