Time to start asking questions like. Why do they feel it's necessary to increase boss armour by 10% when rogues where already doing sub par dps. It's definitely not time to be complacent and say "Wait and see". We've waited and we've seen.
Ok, so you're just completely wrong here...we weren't doing sub-par DPS at that point in Beta. Basically, prior to the last wave of changes (which included the armor change, Hunter WF change, Warrior changes, Warlock changes etc), on a fight like Patchwerk, the meters were typically looking like:
1. Hunter (5.8 - 6k DPS)
2. Rogue (5.3 - 5.4k DPS)
3. Mages (5.1 - 5.2k DPS)
So we were substantially behind Hunters, but everyone was (and still is). This is why they're nerfing Hunters now. We were typically a bit better than mages too, unless they just got lucky on Hot Streak procs. After the armor change, it basically means typically, we are in line with Mages, but if they get a good streak they will beat us.
Now, that's ignoring the issue that very clearly, we scale far more linearly than the other classes do right now. A large chunk of a Mage or Warlock's spell power comes from their weapons. Once Fury Warriors get TG, their DPS goes up substantially, etc. But these classes will taper off a bit in this tier while we continue to linearly scale.
Mutilate Rogues will cap out at 5.3k or so DPS on Patchwerk, which if you look at it the only Mages that are getting up there at the moment are ones whose gear is nearly entirely capped out (or just a very lucky crit streak). Hunters of course easily get there, but they're getting nerfed for a reason.
Assuming the Hunter changes do their job, I think we will be fairly competitive with Mages, Warlocks, and Hunters once everyone is T7 geared. It's just getting there we lag behind. The only other question mark IMO is Fury Warriors, and are they doing too much damage still?
IMO Warriors need a balance to their direct damage attacks and less focus on bled DoT damage. I thought the bleeding to proc Overpower aspect of Arms was a great idea. But the bleed DoT itself is doing too much damage.
Keep in mind, on fights like Patchwerk where raid damage is non-existent, Warriors lose a decent chunk of rage gained from being hurt. On fights where very little movement is required, but raid wide damage is prevalent, their DPS numbers skyrocket. Hasn't been too many raid encounters like that yet, but I think we'll be seeing them down the road, and you can probably suspect a nerf then.
As has been covered in this thread multiple times, this is a bug with recount. Sword Spec procs your main hand, even under conditions where this makes no sense. The combat log reports that a sword spec proc happened but not which attack it was. Recount makes a guess, and usually gets it wrong.
Thanks, I just checked it manually and you were correct. My apologies if this had already been covered.
Quick question: would a one point eviscerate do more damage than a hemorhage with a fast mh? I'm assuming the wep is ~1.5 @ ~150 dps. My AP would be 4500.
Quick question: would a one point eviscerate do more damage than a hemorhage with a fast mh? I'm assuming the wep is ~1.5 @ ~150 dps. My AP would be 4500.
If you know your ap, it's fairly easy to figure out what each would do on your own and compare them.
personally i have my difficulties to achieve a good and fluently working rotation with all the new changes to glyphs etc.
In BC your cycle was pretty much reduced to stack Points with Sinister Strike push as early as possible SnD dont`t let it fall off and for the rest of the time take care of the highest Rupture uptime as possible.
So the roataion was pretty much 4s/5r with the T4 Bonus to slice and dice for example.
But with WotLK i have my problems i must admit. Sometimes when the Sinister Strike Glyph procs i have my 5 combo points really fast so basically i am stacking 5 combopoints and then pushing slice and dice. after that i am stacking 5 Points again and then i will go for rupture. But what after that? Sometimes u have the time to throw an eviscerate into the rotation but even if u can it mostly means for me that either rupture falls off for a few seconds or that i am a few moments withput slice and dice. The combo point stacking is sometimes so fast and sometimes not that it isnt easily predictable what to do next without hurting your own dps.
What do you guys suggest? The spreadsheet says for me its the highest dps to go 5s/5r but what to do in between?
Do you think its a good way to push sinister strike even if u already have 5 com bo points just to wait a few seconds more to refresh rupture as soon as possible or would it be a mistake?
Quick question: Webbed Death or Paper Cutter for PvE mutilate MH?
Webbed Death is 1.4 speed with higher DPS (156.4).
Paper Cutter is 1.3 speed with lower DPS (130.0).
Sure, the general rule is to put the faster weapon in the MH for more instant poison procs, but after seeing a Rogue use Webbed Death in the OH and Paper Cutter in the MH, it got me to thinking whether it is actually a dps gain to drop 26.4dps (and 50 avg weap dmg) in your MH weapon to gain 0.1 speed for poison procs?
I gave my (subjective) opinion that Webbed Death should be the better MH choice, but the rogues seem to live by Vulajin's logic of faster dps MH always wins. But by that logic, wouldn't Edge of Oppression also be a better MH weapon than Webbed Death? I would hope that it isnt... lol.
Quick question: Webbed Death or Paper Cutter for PvE mutilate MH?
Webbed Death is 1.4 speed with higher DPS (156.4).
Paper Cutter is 1.3 speed with lower DPS (130.0).
Sure, the general rule is to put the faster weapon in the MH for more instant poison procs, but after seeing a Rogue use Webbed Death in the OH and Paper Cutter in the MH, it got me to thinking whether it is actually a dps gain to drop 26.4dps (and 50 avg weap dmg) in your MH weapon to gain 0.1 speed for poison procs?
I gave my (subjective) opinion that Webbed Death should be the better MH choice, but the rogues seem to live by Vulajin's logic of faster dps MH always wins. But by that logic, wouldn't Edge of Oppression also be a better MH weapon than Webbed Death? I would hope that it isnt... lol.
Whilst fater is better you can't disregard DPS so Edge of Oppression isn't going to be better even if it si a 1.3 speed. If you have two weapons of similar DPS the faster is better. If you are unsure if a slightly lower DPS but faster weapon will incr your DPS then Spreadsheet it to find out how much DPS it is worth losing for a .1s faster weapon for you.
But with WotLK i have my problems i must admit. Sometimes when the Sinister Strike Glyph procs i have my 5 combo points really fast so basically i am stacking 5 combopoints and then pushing slice and dice. after that i am stacking 5 Points again and then i will go for rupture. But what after that? Sometimes u have the time to throw an eviscerate into the rotation but even if u can it mostly means for me that either rupture falls off for a few seconds or that i am a few moments withput slice and dice.
Fleshshaper mh, lpc oh. The speed doesn't make as big a difference on the mh since deadly poison is on it, and the extra dps and harder hits make up for the fewer crits from focused attacks.
For me at least... if you're uncertain, check the spreadsheet with your gear/talents in there.
Followup question to this reply:
If I put the Fleshshaper in my MH, I apply DP to it? So do I always apply Instant Poison to the fastest dagger I have?
EDIT: Nevermind, I read up on the update to Mutilate weapon speeds and poison procs. Sorry for wasting your time.
Not enough if u ask me. The advice u refering to which i already know of course implies that u let Rupture drop certain times in favor of throwing an eviscerate in your rotation. So one can say that u try to achieve an almost 100% uptime of rupture isn`t the case anymore cause eviscerate is now a stron alternative?
Simple question. One rogue in my guild said that now expertise gives benefits even after the Expertise Cap. He said that it now also reduces the damage reduction of Glancing Hits. Is there anything true about this? As I dind't read anything about it. Thank you.
Not enough if u ask me. The advice u refering to which i already know of course implies that u let Rupture drop certain times in favor of throwing an eviscerate in your rotation. So one can say that u try to achieve an almost 100% uptime of rupture isn`t the case anymore cause eviscerate is now a stron alternative?
Am i right and any theroycrafting on this?
The Pokcetguide is referring to a 5s/5r/5e rotation, what rotation are you using?
I went through my raids yesterday with a 4s/5r rotation (as best as I could) and I find that rotations are no longer as linear as they were in TBC, its a lot about adapting now. If you want a consistent 4s/5r rotation, you pool energy at 4 CP (generally till 60 energy so it doesn't cap) and refresh SnD and go through your rotation normally. At times I found myself confident enough to throw in an Eviscerate, I also found myself overwriting Rupture when it has 2-3 seconds left (after pooling energy and not letting it cap).
Simple question. One rogue in my guild said that now expertise gives benefits even after the Expertise Cap. He said that it now also reduces the damage reduction of Glancing Hits. Is there anything true about this? As I dind't read anything about it. Thank you.
Nothing of that sort has been found or discussed here. Currently, the Expertise Cap seems to be somewhere between 6.25/6.5 so you want to aim for the 6.5 mark. Even then it is possible to find gear with Expersite which will put you above the cap but still provide better DPS due to other stats on it.
Not enough if u ask me. The advice u refering to which i already know of course implies that u let Rupture drop certain times in favor of throwing an eviscerate in your rotation. So one can say that u try to achieve an almost 100% uptime of rupture isn`t the case anymore cause eviscerate is now a stron alternative?
Am i right and any theroycrafting on this?
There is no special benefit to having ~100% uptime with Rupture, and there really never was. In The Burning Crusade, the ideal cycle did have very high Rupture uptime, but this was mostly because SND did not last long enough to possibly allow for two 5-pt finishers in between refreshing SND.
In WOTLK, SND now lasts longer (talent buffed + glyph) and Combat has 25% higher energy regeneration through the new Vitality talent. As a result, you have more energy and combo points, and you need to refresh SND less often. Since it's now possible to (sometimes) fit two finishers between SND refreshes, it's advantageous to do so.
It may perhaps make it easier to understand if you imagine if Rupture actually dealt all of its damage payload instantly instead of over a period of 20 seconds (glyphed), and simply had a 20 second cooldown. This would result in exactly the same DPS over a sustained fight.
Thanks for your reply but what still confuses me is the fact that vulajins current spreadsheet shows higher dps for an
Xs/Yr cycle compared to an Xs/Yr/Ze cycle. According to the things u said that doesn`t makes sense does it?
That's because it's only sometimes possible (based on how lucky you are with Combat Potency procs) to fit a 3rd finisher inbetween SND refreshes. It's important that you don't throw in a 3rd finisher every single cycle, and instead only use the 3rd finisher if you get lucky with Combat Potency procs. Vulajin's spreadsheet will try to model Xs/Yr/Ze using the 3rd finisher on every single cycle, which is worse than never using a 3rd finisher, because your SND will drop.
I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I couldn't find a thread like this.
My idea was to remove in the standart multilate-tree (51-13-7) one rank from "Cut to the Chase" and add the first in "Master Poisoner" a row above.
I haven't alrady testet it long enougt to 'test it completely', but I think the combo-point generation ist strong enough, so that there are enougt Envenom-finishers (while Rupture is ticking), that the 80% chance is big enougt to refresh "Slice and Dice" with an additional 1% crit while the enemy ist poisioned.
Are there some comments ore statements about this?
Thank you for reading. (mistakes give away for free :O)
Leaving an SnD refresh up to chance is a very bad idea. 1/3 in Master Poisoner will do nothing if you have someone else in the raid to cover the debuff (Elemental Shaman or Ret Pally).
I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I couldn't find a thread like this.
My idea was to remove in the standart multilate-tree (51-13-7) one rank from "Cut to the Chase" and add the first in "Master Poisoner" a row above.
I haven't alrady testet it long enougt to 'test it completely', but I think the combo-point generation ist strong enough, so that there are enougt Envenom-finishers (while Rupture is ticking), that the 80% chance is big enougt to refresh "Slice and Dice" with an additional 1% crit while the enemy ist poisioned.
Are there some comments ore statements about this?
Thank you for reading. (mistakes give away for free :O)
Basically you'd be trading a good cycle for a bad one relying much more on RNG(no matter how "good" 80% is) than you already are, for 1/3 of a buff that you shouldn't ever need.
The general advice would be to spec for 3/3 Master Poisoner when there are no Retri Paladins or Ele Shamans in your Raid so that you can provide the full buff. If one of the two is present every point in Master Poisoner would be wasted for the purpose of Damageincrease.
Just a quick question about mutlate cycles...do I envenom only when 5 stacks of deadly are up? for example, to start off a fight, I garrote, slice, muti once or twice (depending on crits and ruth procs) by that time DP usually has anywhere from 1-5 stacks, what do I do if its not at 5 stacks? and also what do I do on the sections of the cycle where mutilate keeps critting and Ruth keeps proccing (meaning i can pretty much spam envenom 3-4 times before rupture wears off, when deadly isnt at 5 stacks?
12/09/08, 5:31 PM
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