Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09/20/09, 12:30 PM   #3871
Lyphe
Von Kaiser
 
Lyphe's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Mavanas View Post
If you look at the combat log closely, the intervals between pyrite infuser procs were as low as 51 seconds, so even though average delay was quite long, it cannot disprove the current hypothesis that the trinket has 50 second internal cooldown. Here are the delays between procs and the times at which each proc occured:

67.077 (0:00'17.172)
62.345 (0:02'16.419)
50.984 (0:03'07.403)
74.739 (0:04'22.142)
56.402 (0:05'18.544)
60.727 (0:06'19.271)
69.767 (0:07'29.038)
64.109 (0:08'33.147)
54.675 (0:09'27.822)

In a raid environment your crit rate is higher due to various buffs and debuffs, also you attack more frequently due to higher haste and higher energy regen, so the delays between when the internal cooldown expires and when you crit again will be lower.
Actually, even in a raid environment with buffs the Infuser seems to fluctuate between about 16% and 19%. Here are a couple of logs from different fights in different raid compositions. The problem being ... even with added haste and crit, you still have to contend with "chance on crit". And if the chance on crit is only 10% ( my understanding ) ... then you are realling only buffing that 10% chance and there is no way it will bring your average proc down from 62.314 ( average from my dummy test above ) to 51 seconds or close .

Ignis Log @ 19%:
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Koralon Log @ 16%:
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Offline
Old 09/20/09, 4:23 PM   #3872
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
I would not expect a trinket with 50 second cooldown that procs from criticals to proc every 51 seconds. I do want to point out that 19% on Ignis is equivalent to proccing every 10/0.19=52.6 seconds. Based on the simsheet, in a raid situation in 3.1 BiS gear, combat can do close to 1.82 crits per second (white+specials). That's a crit every 0.55 seconds. With 10% chance to proc from a crit, you should expect on average a 5.5 second delay, so on average the trinket at that level of gear will proc every 55.5 seconds, which is equivalent to about 18% uptime.

Offline
Old 09/21/09, 11:18 AM   #3873
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
This might have been answered before but i could not find a answer with the search function. Has there been any theorycrafting on Killing Spree weapon swapping? There is the option of swapping to slow offhand before using KS, just after using KS or not at all. I started using a KS macro that equips a slow (2.7) offhand instead of my fast dagger (1.4) and KS damage went up significantly, tho i usually lose my deadly poison stack as my 2nd offhand will have wound poison on. Also it is a bit tricky to find out how much damage got lost to the reset of the swing timer. Would be also interesting to know if the weapon swap resets swing timers for both hands or only the affected one.

Offline
Old 09/21/09, 1:29 PM   #3874
Millikin
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Lyphe View Post
I'm trying to figure out if the [Mark of Supremacy] is a worthwhile way to spend 50 badges as an upgrade from [Pyrite Infuser]. Problem is that I'm getting contradictory data.

My own napkin math shows that the Mark should be an upgrade. Not a massive upgrade, but decent enough to justify it. To be certain, however, I ran the numbers on Aldriana's most recent spreadsheet and I was surprised to see that the Mark would give me a dps loss.

I've poked around the forums and can't find a lot of chat about the Mark. Has anyone else put these two trinks head to head? Would appreciate any comments and ty.
All proc-based/internal-cooldown based math aside, you may be able to look at Mark as an upgrade simply because you get to choose when it procs (after two minutes, of course) as opposed to it proccing on its own. Regardless of whether or not you need the hit rating, things proc'ing in tandem can give you a dps boost that may outshine whatever slight differences the two pieces have in a non-situational, mathematical setting. It will clearly depend on the boss, how good you are about using cooldowns, and a slew of other factors; when I checked your armory, I saw you currently specced into and geared for mutilate, which would benefit less from the idea I just mentioned. Your combat spec, however, loves it when you stack cooldowns on top of each other, especially during Killing Spree. Since Killing Spree boosts all damage done by 20%, you can (simply put; the actual math is much more complicated) look at it as though all other cooldowns you pop during a killing spree are 20% more effective, as long as they aren't cooldowns that will serve no purpose during a Killing Spree (Adrenaline Rush). I apologize that most of this theory regards the combat spec; I have limited familiarity with mutilate at this point.

So from that standpoint, I guess my conclusive opinion is (like many things with theorycraft), "It depends."

Offline
Old 09/21/09, 5:28 PM   #3875
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
Shaker's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Elune
If you just finished levelling him, why are you using lower rank poisons?

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

Kurisu's BSG Reference Sheet

Offline
Old 09/21/09, 10:04 PM   #3876
MassMan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Is tott damage bonus additive or multiplicative? (if those are the correct terms)
Example: You get the +100% Empowered buff on valkyr twins.

Is tott now just adding a flat 15% on top of that, or is tott in actuality 30%?

Offline
Old 09/21/09, 10:17 PM   #3877
tenaki
Von Kaiser
 
tenaki's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Dath'Remar
Re: Hodir hard mode
Does anybody know if singed is applied by rogue poisons?
We run our 10-mans with a very melee heavy group (not by choice), so I was just wondering how big a problem it is going to be.

edit:
Sorry, I just figured out how to find out the information myself from logs. Looked at who applied the singed debuff, compared poison damage between a hodir kill and an ignis kill.

For the record, rogue poisons don't apply the singe debuff, but it looks like poisons benefit from it.

Last edited by tenaki : 09/21/09 at 11:09 PM. Reason: found the information myself

Offline
Old 09/22/09, 5:32 AM   #3878
Liquoid
Glass Joe
 
Liquoid's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Balnazzar (EU)
Originally Posted by tenaki View Post
For the record, rogue poisons don't apply the singe debuff, but it looks like poisons benefit from it.
That's the reason Mutilate will usually perform better than Combat on Hodir

Offline
Old 09/22/09, 6:15 AM   #3879
Zebananzer
Glass Joe
 
Zebananzer's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Nazgrel
Originally Posted by Chack View Post
This might have been answered before but i could not find a answer with the search function. Has there been any theorycrafting on Killing Spree weapon swapping? There is the option of swapping to slow offhand before using KS, just after using KS or not at all. I started using a KS macro that equips a slow (2.7) offhand instead of my fast dagger (1.4) and KS damage went up significantly, tho i usually lose my deadly poison stack as my 2nd offhand will have wound poison on. Also it is a bit tricky to find out how much damage got lost to the reset of the swing timer. Would be also interesting to know if the weapon swap resets swing timers for both hands or only the affected one.

I'm actually curious about this now after reading the question. It seems that a quick weapon swap would be a boost in dps during the killing spree, even more so if the swapped weapon had wound on it rather than deadly.

I do know that the problem with dropping deadly poison could be easily avoided if you ensure your deadly stack had a fair amount of time remaining on it. Obviously if you have 2 sec left on a stack, and then weapon swap --> KS, you're going to lose your stack.

Reading this post reminded me of the upcoming posibilities with weapon swaps for increased poison dmg, yet only doing it during a KS would seem like a fairly easy way to increase dmg.

Just going off my common sense and assumptions here, but I think the swap would outweigh any sort of dmg loss by the swing reset. I dont know however if it affects both weapon hands, or just the hand that was swapped.

Offline
Old 09/22/09, 9:32 AM   #3880
bdx
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Frostmane (EU)
What rotation are you guys using on trash? Just spaming FoK or?

Offline
Old 09/22/09, 10:01 AM   #3881
MassMan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by bdx View Post
What rotation are you guys using on trash? Just spaming FoK or?
Trash isn't about optimizing dps, it's about keeping people alive. Constant ressing and rebuffing wastes time.
Compare these 3 scenarios:

a) You use ToTT, SS, SnD, FoK. By the time you get to FoK your ToTT has almost run out.
b) You use SS, SnD, ToTT, FoK. Even worse than above, 3 gcd before you redirect AoE threat.
c) You use ToTT, FoK, FoK, (then SS+SnD if you want). Safest option. And probably even higher total raiddamage since every other dps can AoE instantly.

In my book, c) is far superior to the others.

Last edited by MassMan : 09/22/09 at 10:12 AM.

Offline
Old 09/22/09, 1:55 PM   #3882
Lyphe
Von Kaiser
 
Lyphe's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Millikin View Post
All proc-based/internal-cooldown based math aside, you may be able to look at Mark as an upgrade simply because you get to choose when it procs (after two minutes, of course) as opposed to it proccing on its own. Regardless of whether or not you need the hit rating, things proc'ing in tandem can give you a dps boost that may outshine whatever slight differences the two pieces have in a non-situational, mathematical setting. It will clearly depend on the boss, how good you are about using cooldowns, and a slew of other factors; when I checked your armory, I saw you currently specced into and geared for mutilate, which would benefit less from the idea I just mentioned. Your combat spec, however, loves it when you stack cooldowns on top of each other, especially during Killing Spree. Since Killing Spree boosts all damage done by 20%, you can (simply put; the actual math is much more complicated) look at it as though all other cooldowns you pop during a killing spree are 20% more effective, as long as they aren't cooldowns that will serve no purpose during a Killing Spree (Adrenaline Rush). I apologize that most of this theory regards the combat spec; I have limited familiarity with mutilate at this point.

So from that standpoint, I guess my conclusive opinion is (like many things with theorycraft), "It depends."
You bring up a very valid point that I meant to include in my previous post. The ability to TIME the USE of Mark is proving to be a difference maker for me. I actually do raid combat ( my Mut spec is only pvp ) and dropping the mark on cue with all my other cds ... or at the same time as heroism ... or when XT's heart drops - is huge. I was actually really hopping not to like the Mark better than Infuser since I prefer not to need an extra button on my bar ... but all my practical use so far has in fact pointed to the Mark as a viable upgrade. It's still early though and I've not had a chance to try it in TOC raids ... but I'll be trying it tonight.

Offline
Old 09/23/09, 12:26 AM   #3883
Dlonyer
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Sargeras
I picked up the 196 dps Gutgore Ripper today. Though it doesn't have any stats, I was wondering if the pure dps increase paired with the proc would outweigh the stats that [Twilight Mist] gives. I am running 51/13/7, The World of Warcraft Armory is my armory.

Thanks!

Offline
Old 09/23/09, 1:24 AM   #3884
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
While it is hard to guess the dps of a proc before the testing is done, I would guess they are keeping the total dps, including the proc, similar to that of items of a similar level. So it should definitely be a dps increase compared to twilight mist. Looking at the proc, there is probably some item value assigned to the defensive aspect of the proc ("lowering all stats by 120") but it is still at least 2 levels above Twilight Mist, so I have no doubt, 196 dps Gutgore will be better.

Offline
Old 09/23/09, 2:14 AM   #3885
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Historically, procs have sucked relative to stats. We will of course need to test the dagger (and the sword, and the axe) to see what the proc rate, but the proc rate will need to be extremely high for it to be competitive with stated item of the same tier.

In terms of comparisons to an item several tiers below: it's *probably* better, but when you consider the PvP weapons and how they stack up to their PvE counterparts, that's by no means a given either.

In short: we need proc rate testing before we can realistically comment on how good they're going to be.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Death Knight: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Death Knights 2880 12/10/10 9:50 PM
Priest: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Priests 2077 12/06/10 4:01 PM
Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Mages 2838 12/06/10 8:05 AM
Hunter: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Hunters 1974 12/02/10 8:53 AM