Sneakiest

As far as I can tell by what was written a while ago on envenom damage, envenom bases itself 'more' off the combo point count than over the number of deadly stacks, meaning that if you got a 5-point envenom with 4 stacks up versus a 4-point envenom with 5 stacks up, the 5 pointer will deal more damage (or something of the sort).

Regardless, you don't have to have five deadly stacks up, what I do is generally just pool my energy while I get stacks up. I do this for two reasons:
1) To allow deadly to tick while I pool my energy and to allow it to stack up, I also just pool energy after an envenom if I have no stacks in order to avoid wasting mutilate damage (assuming I'm the only 'poisoner', for instance, when you're on a target dummy practising your rotations alone, unlikely to be the case in a raid).
2) If I do have stacks up after an envenom, I immediately dump my energy to make use of the envenom proc - I've seen some argue against this, but with the whole thing about mutilate proccing OH poisons twice and deadly stacks up faster again, I think it should be better use of the energy.

The line of thought behind 2) is that basically it avoids deadly 'downtime' after an envenom (basically by spamming one or two mutilates for the duration of the buff, aiding autoattack on getting it back up) and higher chances at proccing IP off the off-hand.

 

Tinwhisker

If you're at 4+ CPs, no stacks of Deadly, in danger of capping out, and have lots of time left on Rupture there's no shame in burning off those CPs with an Eviscerate. It's not your best finisher overall but it is the best thing to do at the time (in my opinion). I'll often Envenom with a 4 stack of Deadly if I find myself high on energy, CPs and Rupture; I'll Envenom at a 3 stack if Slice and Dice is going to fall but outside of that I avoid 1-2 stack Envenoms as much as possible.

Realistically, that situation isn't going to happen very often at all. Patience is key and I've found that the better I got at pooling energy the easier things got and the less often I have to make those kind of decisions. That may have more to do with the way my playstyle developed more than actual game mechanics though.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Darkwyng

So I'm specced standard 51/13/7 and I was wondering...do ya'll start out boss fights with a Shiv/SnD/Shiv/Evisc or Envenom just to quickly up your SnD uptime from the start? I've been doing that and was wondering if that was stupid.

 

MasterDinadan

You want to get SnD up fast, but there's no reason you need to evis fast. I usually just muti, SnD, and then build up 4-5 CP to evis and just go into my regular cycle from there. A 2 point SnD will last long enough to make it to a 4+ evis and get your cycle started, so there's no reason not to start your cycle on it.

 

yumepenguin

I wouldn't use shiv at all, it's not an effective damage + CPs to energy ability. I personally stealth in with a full stack of HfB, tricks of the Trade up on the MT and do 2 mutilates (about a 75 - 80% chance of one critting for 5 CPs), SnD, coldblood mutilate, then possibly mutilate again if I only have 3 CPs, Rupture and refresh HfB.

That's the first 20ish seconds of my fight depending on FA, ruthlessness and relentless strikes. Then I build up for rupture and continue the cycle normally.

 

Inkm

I usually open with garotte or just a mutilate. Whatever to get the cycle going really.

e: horribly beaten.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/newfarm.png

 

Echophantom

Envenom still gives the full AP bonus even if it doesn't use up 5 stacks of deadly poison. However, in those situations I'd guess that using Evisc would be better. However, until the envenom modeling thing gets settled it likely won't be known for usre.

 

Brotherbear

Depending on the fight (positioning wise and threat wise) I usually open in one of two ways:

1) Stealthed with HfB up and Tricks on the MT
Ambush -> Mutilate -> SnD -> Coldblooded Mutilate -> (If Ruthlessness proc'd off of SnD then ->Rupture else -> Mutilate then Rupture) -> Refresh HfB etc.

We've been learning Malygos this week, so I've gotten that combination pretty much down to a science. I've found that the opening ambush etc gives the tank a very nice threat bump which makes the remainder of the encounter pretty easy on the dps since (although I do chain Tricks the whole way to be safe). Also I have [Sinister Revenge]so Ambush is pretty strong.

2) Running in, no stealth. Have HfB up and Tricks if I can (or I cast it first)
Mut -> Mut -> SnD -> Mut -> If 4 cp then Rupture etc as above. It really doesn't change much.

To be honest I've never used Shiv. I rerolled rogue for the expansion and I just didn't see a place for it in my rotation at any point.


As far as Mutilate tips go, and this may be common knowledge, I've found the following things to be useful.

1) If both HfB and SnD are running down at the same time I will build to at least a 4 point Envenom or Eviscerate (depending on deadly poison stacks of course) and then use the energy from the Relentless Strikes proc to refresh HfB.

2) In general I will use Relentless Strikes procs to refresh HfB as needed. Not only does it provide the boost of energy I need to get to 30, it also has become a habit for me to check HfB everytime I hit a finisher which has helped make the Mut cycle alot more consistent for me. Literally when I hit my rupture or envenom buttons my eyes will immediately glance to my HfB bar to check if I need to refresh or not.

3) I will go a little out of my way to not engage a boss without having tricks on the maintank. Mut is a much spikier threat build than combat and even though my tanks can handle it, I find it more comforting to know that the times when I RNG crit streak are actively beneficial to the guild as a whole. While it's not technically needed, it does allow for cross TotT madness later with impunity.

4) Get some sort of addon like Rogue powerbars or somesuch. I have HfB, SnD, and DP stacks pulled out of the mess of buffs and debuffs that is the Blizzard UI, and I don't think I could maintain my uptime without it.

Hope that helps.

Edit: "if" is a different word than "is"

 

jilanea

I'd like to try a HaT build but was a a bit unclear which weapons I should use and in which hand.

Note I have tried to use the spreadsheet but HaT isn't modelled and has I suspect quite significant bearing on weapon choice. Its also hard to test on live due to needing a bunch of people to help out.

I have Greed, Omen of Ruin, Librarian's Papper Cutter and Maexxna's Femur. Suspect I want Greed/Omen.

I will also be the recipiant of the next two hailstorms that drop. If I get one or two, should I be using them for Hat over the above and if so in what hand first?

I will never raid with 2 HaT rogues as I'm the only rogue in my 10 man only guild.

 

Brotherbear

Actually for HaT, weapons are pretty insignificant if you have the right group/cp generation. HaT dps is based primarily on finishers (keeping Rupture/SnD up and spamming Eviscerate every gcd) with minimal actual attacks and eviscerate isn't weapon based. That being said, you're probably best off with the fastest options available for poison procs, while still using the best weapons you can.

 

inph

There's a fair bit of testing going on in the HaT thread.

Keep in mind, HaT doesnt really shine in 10 man environments unless you can put together a specialised group setup and you're getting to eviscerate on almost every gcd.

Omen of Ruin (1.5) Librarian's Papper Cutter (1.3) will most probably be the best combination from the weapons you listed due to more poison procs and eviscerate being AP not weapon damage based.

CQC and the right fast weapons providing more poison procs should rule out the Hailstorms.

If your cps aren't flooding in you're unlikely to do enough damage to beat other specs.

I can't comment on how being cp starved full energy will affect your choice on hemo'ing with Omen/Greed vs backstab whilst you're waiting for a decent amount of cp to do anything.

 

Anonymousrogue

Hi guys.

Last night I got myself [Omen of Ruin] , and this i plan to go mutilate once i get another dagger. For mutilate I believe it's roughly a ~1.8 speed MH and I'll be okay to use the Omen OH, is this correct?

And with a Mut cycle, Is the cycle just basically: HFBx3, Mut, S+D, Mut 1-2 times, rupture, Mut 1-2 Envenom?

Sorry these are probably very stupid questions but i've been having a lot of trouble finding Mut cycles on this site, search tool reveals questions I'm not interested in and who can blame me not looking through 100+ pages trying to find someone who has mentioned a stable Mut cycle :P (though I have looked quite abit!)

Any response is appreciated!

 

saedo

Well not exactly correct. Your daggers could be of any speed really. Quality of daggers matters. OH the faster one of the 2.

The HFBx3 should be done before combat, constantly refreshed through out it. Then yea, SnD asap. Then 4+ point combo points with Rupture and Envenom.

There really isn't a set cycle, just priority system for Mutilate

1. HFB x 3 never falls off
2. SnD never falls off as long as you're just fighting the boss itself, kept up via 4+ combo Envenom after the first SnD.
3. Keep 4+ combo ruptures up as much as possible in the meantime

 

Anonymousrogue

Thanks for that info, I presume you're only going to go upto 4 CP and hopefully Seal Fate will provide you the fifth for free, correct?

For the glyphs with Mut, i expect the main 2 would be S+D/Rupture, and I'm guessing garrote but I'm unsure how often Sinister Strike is used as Mut, also is the Rupture and Envenom just cycled between the two, one at a time or two+Envenoms if you have the time left on a rupture?

Thanks for this it's much appreciated.


On a side note, if anyone can recommend a dagger that would pair nicely with Omen of Ruin it'll be much appreciated, please do excuse my ignorance, I do realise how much of a hassle my questions may be .I plan on starting a WWS thread for people once i get my ten posts, hopefully that can be of some use to others.

 

saedo

Well you don't necessarily need the 5th. Just start doing at 4 if it lands at 4, 5 otherwise, because Mutilate gives you at least 2 combo points.

Yes, SnD and Rupture. There really isn't a 3rd one out for mutilate, so go with whatever.

Basically if your SnD timer is not low, and Rupture is not up, Rupture. Otherwise, Envenom. Will probably envenom a few times inbetween each rupture depending on your luck, and that should refresh SnD anyways.

And there's a large range of daggers you can use with it. Anything from another [Omen of Ruin] to maybe a Librarian's off AH, or a blue dagger off rep vendors. It's hard to say, use a spreadsheet found in the forums here.

 

enno

Not sure if this question fits in here but it seems like the best place to ask it anyway so here goes:

Is blizz forcing rogues to spec out of swords? I'v been looking at loottables and I can barely find dps swords. There's 1 offhand that drops from 25 man naxx and 1 MH that drops from 10 man naxx. Couldn't seem to find any other drops while daggers drop more and get dropped from the 2 latest bosses giving them a clear dps advantages over swords when the place is on clear and you're waiting for the next instance.

Is swordspec better with same dps weapons to justify this or is there something else I'm not understanding?

 

MasterDinadan

Your observation is correct. But it's worth noting that good fist weapons and daggers are very common, and a fist spec plays exactly the same as a sword spec, there's only one talent difference. Consider also the fact fist spec is arguably better than sword spec for you main hand (because crits increase the bonus damage from your skills/finishers and have a high multiplier due to Prey on the Weak and Lethality) and a lack of main hand swords is not a problem at all. There's no advantage to main handing a sword compared to main handing a fist.

Now, in the off-hand, sword spec is actually better, so you may be getting screwed by lack of decent sword off-hands, but you certainly shouldn't worry about being "forced" into fists for the main hand.

 

• Aldriana

Well, lets see, if we count non-pvp weapons on wowhead, we find 7 ilvl 200 swords and 4 ilvl 213 swords, versus 7 ilvl 200 daggers, 4 ilvl 213 daggers, and 1 ilvl 226 dagger. So off the top of my head, I'd say your proposed imbalance doesn't even exist in the first place. And second, even if it did, I don't know how you expect us to answer this question - all we could do would be speculate about blizzard's intent, which is rarely productive.

In terms of balance: it is currently believed that Mutilate builds are perhaps slightly ahead (though not by an unreasonable margin) than combat builds (which may or may not use swords - fist weapons and dagger OHs are perfectly viable for combat, and arguably superior to swords). So no, sword spec is not fundamentally better.

However, the short answer to any itemization question is, basically, who knows. Why is Mutilate optimized to make the best use out of fast daggers, but over half the PvE daggers are slow? Why are our best options for a number of slots weighed down with Armor Penetration, which, on a point-for-point basis, is barely better than strength? Why is the best ring in existance for almost every melee class - and hunters as well - a BoE drop that can be gotten in a 10-man instance? There are a lot of aspects of itemization that are odd, but we have no ability to comment on what Blizzard's thought process might be, so speculating about it is, ultimately, unproductive. It is what it is, and all we can do is figure out which of the choices they have presented us with is optimal.

 

snyft

Hi i was thinking of leveling up my Rogue alt, and was wondering if i use swords or daggers? Gonna buy the gold ones
[Balanced Heartseeker] and [Sharpened Scarlet Kris]
or [Battleworn Thrash Blade] and [Venerable Dal'Rend's Sacred Charge]
also a nice spec for leveling would be nice.

 

Tinwhisker

Leveling with daggers is more difficult at lower levels where you don't have access to the talent points that make it the heavy hitter that it is now. My advice would be to grab the swords, get the 5% crit from Malice, and start climbing your way up the combat tree. Experienced rogues may or may not go this route but it's a generally easy learning curve.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

snyft

Hi, Tinwhisker my Rogue is lvl 61 so i got access to a decent amount of talents.

 

Sleightt

Wow Web Stats

Lately I've been looking for a WWS where I have had a near perfect rotation with Mutilate on Patchwerk, so I could try and see what I could improve. On our last clear, I pretty much did a rotation without messing up (not letting SnD or HfB fall, things like that). But I still only managed to hit 3.9k DPS, and I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong compared to other Mut rogues that leaves the 2k-4k DPS gap. (The only thing that changed since that last Patchwerk kill was that I got Fury of the Five Flights from Sarth, but that probably wouldn't be too much of a dps increase).

I read the preferred Mutilate rotation in the WotLK pocket guide thread, and I'm doing all of that. The only thing I was sort of unclear on was when to stop using Envenom depending on how much time rupture has on it, but I started pooling energy if it has 5 seconds or less to see if it would help.

I know that my expertise is extremely low (only 75 expertise rating), but my other stats seem pretty equal to some Mutilate rogues doing 4.5k+ DPS, so this was just something I thought I may have been doing wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

 

◊ chalon

Well, at least part of the reason is that the Patchwerk fight was extremely long - 4:11. The high end parses you've been looking at clock in at like 2:30 - 3:00, depending on how many healers they use. As the fight gets longer and longer, your DPS goes down because you have less of a Heroism uptime.

In terms of your damage output, the percentage breakdown seems roughly appropriate, so that tells me your cycle is probably okay. You didn't let SnD drop it seems, which is good. It looks like however your Hunger for Blood dropped about ~30s into the fight and you had to refresh a full stack, that's bad. Other than that I don't see any obvious mistakes made.

I'd also wonder if you had a full set of all the raid buff/debuffs, or if any of them were missing?

 

Sleightt

It's possible I was missing some buffs, I don't remember which I actually had that kill. I know I had Might/Kings/Flask/food buff and all of the other timed buffs, because I always check them before each boss fight. So maybe the Shaman wasn't keeping totems up or something like that.

I see your point with the fight being extremely long though, so thanks a lot for the help.

 

• Aldriana

I think raid buffs must be a significant part of it, as if you compare your performance to, for instance, my guild's Patchwerk kill this week (here), one finds that basically all your abilities are simply doing a lot less damage than mine. My rupture ticks for 950 on average, and yours for 647. My IP hits for 1372/2115 crit, yours for 1227/1906 crit. And so on. So it looks to me like you're very likely missing Mangle (or equivalent) and your AP is significantly lower as well, either due to a missing buff or just significantly poorer itemization.