I'm in a casual raid guild and we cleared 10man Naxx 3rd quarter last night. A question on Loatheb.
BTW, I'm 7/51/13 fist/sword mostly in Heroic/rep/badge purples with only a couple of drops from Nax10/Obsidian10.
Because of 50% crit buff, I switched from wound/deadly to wound/wound, and used Evis instead of Rupture.
Sometimes I could do 3-4 evis between SnD. Did I do it right?
I wasn't 100% sure if Evis (with no imp Evis, no Glyph, Warr MT so no need for EA) is indeed better than glyphed Rup with BSplatter + SBlade + T72pc + Trauma. Should I have replaced one of Evis by Rup? Or go to deadly and Env?
I think I was crit capped for white. Is it better to swap for some +hit gear (for example AC exalted boots instead of Faerlina's boots?).
I was trying to trick spreadsheet, but I don't know enough to modify cycles for this fight.
Regarding the 50% crit buff, the only way to accurately answer that would be with a WWS log so we could properly compare the damage from an Eviscerate crit versus a Rupture. My anecdotal experience, though, would likely suggest to keep using Rupture.
As for white crit capped, you most likely were, so hit gear would be actually the same as crit except the conversion would be 32.77 for 1% crit (actually a hit, but works like a crit if crit capped) instead of 45.9 (would only apply to white attacks, though).
My napkin math says your Rupture should do 10000~ damage (assuming from my average Rupture tick and the fact that our gear is similar and you had Blood Spatter), which is probably more than your average Eviscerate (edit your post with a WWS log and I'll edit mine with the correct analysis).
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
Regarding the 50% crit buff, the only way to accurately answer that would be with a WWS log so we could properly compare the damage from an Eviscerate crit versus a Rupture. My anecdotal experience, though, would likely suggest to keep using Rupture.
As for white crit capped, you most likely were, so hit gear would be actually the same as crit except the conversion would be 32.77 for 1% crit (actually a hit, but works like a crit if crit capped) instead of 45.9 (would only apply to white attacks, though).
My napkin math says your Rupture should do 10000~ damage (assuming from my average Rupture tick and the fact that our gear is similar and you had Blood Spatter), which is probably more than your average Eviscerate (edit your post with a WWS log and I'll edit mine with the correct analysis).
Sorry but I didn't save log. Our guild used WWS in the past. But I don't know if anyone from yesterday have done it.
When crit capped for white:
- crit rating converts hit to crit for yellow/poison, but does nothing for white
- hit rating converts miss to hit+crit for yellow/poison (if below cap), and converts miss to crit for white
If I assume 30% damage is from white:
EP for crit rating should be lower (1.5 x 0.7 + 0.0 x 0.3 = 1.0?)
EP for hit rating should be higher (1.6 x 0.7 + 1.6 x 0.3 x 2.4 = 2.1?)
No?
This is a somewhat long-ish question, but it may end up with simple answers.
I was comparing a WWS of my Patchwerk (10-man) performance last night to a 0.4.3 spreadsheet model of my gear and buffs I believe I should have experienced. From looking at the WWS stats, I was able to eliminate Faerie Fire since it was rarely applied to the boss. I need to look more closely, but the other buffs/debuffs appear to have been present.
The spreadsheet shows my maximum potential as Combat (15/51/5) to be about 2740 dps in this fight, while my actual dps for the kill was 2382. I have identified some mistakes and possible mistakes (staying too close to front of boss after KSpree and getting parries, delays between Rupture falling and being reapplied, and Deadly Poison dropping once), which should net me about 99 dps increase, putting my adjusted dps at 2481. This is still 259 dps below the spreadsheet.
Does the spreadsheet take into account target spell/poison resistances? He did resist some of the damage and would have accounted for another 15 dps.
Accounting for the adjustments, which assumes I can make Deadly Poison never drop, Rupture immediately when I need, and that there is 0% resistance, I'm seeing the following dps variances:
I was able to open with Garrote shortly after the tanks started smacking him, and I had enough energy and combo points in my rotation (3s5r) to Eviscerate once. When cooldowns were available, I used KSpree by itself, AR + BF once, and then BF by itself. SnD didn't drop.
Is the number of total hits too small to be concerned about these differences from the spreadsheet, as I may have experienced a dry period? What would be an appropriate sample size to have in order to say that the differences are not due to the RNG?
How much of an effect can latency have on actual dps vs spreadsheet dps? I am on the East Coast USA and play on a West Coast USA server, typical latency of 150-200 ms.
What else should I look for, in order to find either my mistakes or other unaccounted-for reasons for such a large variance from the expected values?
(Edit: I forgot Sinister Strike, though that seems to be fairly close in this fight)
First post on the forums so I hope this is a valid question. My maths isn't too hot so haven't been able to work this out.
At the moment I try to TotT one of the other rogues or melee throughout the fight to boost our dps. Now I've read that TotT adds a theoretical 3% dps to the target of it. Now given that Tricks costs 15 energy, is there any theoretical or realistic dps ratios between yourself and Tricks target upon which TotT is a dps loss as opposed the the damage you could gain from using the 15 energy for another move (eg SS or Muti).
I would think that this depends both on the average dps you personally gain from 15 energy and also the dps of your target which would benefit from the 3% buff, whichever is greater. I assume that there is a ratio between your dps and target's dps at which you would be better served using the 15 energy yourself but I am wondering if this is a ratio we are ever likely to see in a standard raid situation.
I can't remember which thread it was but someone calculated the dps loss as 2% from the 15 energy from tricks, not counting focused attacks. as combat's energy regen is higher I would imagine that the loss is a little bit smaller even, however if you're boosting someone's dps by 3% that is at the bottom of the dps and you're at the top of the dps, it's likely not worth doing it on that person, it seems like it's very highly relative on your dps and your raid's dps. personally I've kinda given up trying to use it every cooldown and go with using it at critical points, low threat on a mob that needs to die fast (sarth+3 for example), during heroism, or if I know "my" rogue just popped their cooldowns.
You're very unlikely to lose DPS by using Tricks on every cooldown. I mean, the 15 energy every 30s is shown as a 1.7% DPS loss for me, in my gear. Using Tricks every cooldown is, averaged, 20% uptime, or 3% increase in overall damage. So, I lose around 60 DPS to use it, so my target would need to do more than 2000 DPS for Tricks to be worth using, this is assuming I do 4000 DPS. Overall, it should always be worth using it on someone doing DPS at least equal or close to yours.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
A question I had regarding Muti pve specs-
I'm having trouble deciding between Turn the Tables and Master Poisoner. I've heard that Master Poisoner is better for 5/10 mans, and Turn the Tables for 25 mans. As of right now I'm doing a mix of both, with neither claiming importance over the other. What would you say is the better option overall?
Well, the point is that Master Poisoner, as a raid buff, contributes a large amount of group DPS... assuming no one else is doing it. So if you almost always have a ret pally or ele shaman around to apply the +crit debuff, you'll do better with TtT; if you don't, Master Poisoner is clearly superior. So, look at your group comp - if you almost always have another source of the crit debuff (or at least, almost always on DPS-limited encounters), TtT will be the better choice; but if you find yourself without it with significant regularity, you should get Master Poisoner instead.
Well, the point is that Master Poisoner, as a raid buff, contributes a large amount of group DPS... assuming no one else is doing it. So if you almost always have a ret pally or ele shaman around to apply the +crit debuff, you'll do better with TtT;
This advice is really best expanded to ANY paladin.
Heart of the Crusader is a standard talent for Protection paladins who want to get up the tree to Pursuit of Justice.
It's an even more standard talent for Holy Paladins who want to get up the tree for all that juicy crit.
Paladins of any spec will be judging every 30 seconds.
So long as the paladin is on the primary DPS target (which is the main advantage of a RET paladin specifically), of any spec, TTT is better.
I just switched to combat to help my guild on progression, but I am not nearly as familiar with combat cycles.
The pocket guide suggests this for a rotation:
but the spreadsheet lists the optimal rotation for me to be 3s/5r/5e.
Combat rogues out there, do you find something like 3s/5r/5e easy to maintain, or do you simply do 5s/5r and fit in however many eviscerates as your cp allows.
I assume 3s/5r/5e would be more optimal, but requires more luck with the RNG for ss glyph procs, but I haven't gotten the chance to test out rotations in a fully raid buffed situation.
For reference, my spec is 15/51/5 with only cqc.
Ok one what glyphs are you running, if you're running snd glyph then a 3s/5r/5e rotation with imp snd talented is completely doable but it may not be wise as you may end up drooping off snd before you get back to three combo points for snd. I on the other hand run Ar glyph, Rupture glyph, and Sinister Strike, i find it quite easy on moving fights to keep up a 4s/5r/4-5e rotation without any send downtime. The real pickle you get into is when your snd glyph procs going into your 3rd combo point. Obviously this means you're just running a 5snd for the next rotation but it can still throw you off a bit.
I dont know if its just my gear or if I'm doing something wrong.
In heroics, ruptures might a waste, if stuff dies too fast.
As for gear, no meta gem helm, no enchant on shoulders, no enchant on chest, no reason for blue gem on chest w/o meta, no enchant on bracers, no gem on belt, no enchant on boots, no enchant on sword, no enchant on dagger, slightly overcapped on expertise (1 too many), talent wise 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword Spec is slightly better.
In heroics, ruptures might a waste, if stuff dies too fast.
As for gear, no meta gem helm, no enchant on shoulders, no enchant on chest, no reason for blue gem on chest w/o meta, no enchant on bracers, no gem on belt, no enchant on boots, no enchant on sword, no enchant on dagger, slightly overcapped on expertise (1 too many), talent wise 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword Spec is slightly better.
Using wound poison over instant poison?
yeah I haven't gone all out with Enchants yet but I'm working on it slowly
Also do you think I should get rid of my blue gem and slot in another 32 Atk Power?
I've watched the forums for awhile, but never really posted. So anyway, I switched to Mut yesterday. I have Librarian's Paper Cutter x2, but I was wondering if Broken Stalactite makes more sense.
These two statements contradict each other. If you really had been reading the forums, you would have seen tons of posts saying faster is better than slower at the same level of DPS. Also, use the spreadsheets.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
I have attempted to find information about the possibility of using dual instant poisons with mutilate 51/13/7. As I could not locate any, I assume that this was not considered previously; since I do not consider myself to be an excellent theorycrafter or even a moderately good one for that matter, I would rather leave this idea to those who do consider, and are, infact, adept in this art.
Basically, I, like many others, like to toy around with Vulajin's greatest gift to the rouge community, the roguecraft spreadsheet. I decided to see what would happen if one was to drop 2 points out of murder and one point out of TtT and replace those points in imp. eviscerate. This would free up the need to envenom (yes I know envenom can, and commonly does out damage evsicerate, and yes I am also aware of the envenom buff, this will be explained momentarily) and the rogue can simply use eviscerate in place of envenom. Because damage between the two is comparable, this is not a major loss of dps, and deadly poison is no longer needed for finishers.
In a raid setting, with Windfury, Imp. Retribution Aura, SnD (obviously), Drums, and the occasional haste potion, a rogue with two 1.4 daggers (webbed death) will be swinging quite a bit. This would result in increased instant procs where increased deadly procs after a certain point become superfluous. With instant being 23% of MY net damage I decided to input this into the spreadsheet to see just what would happen if one was to go IP/IP as dp is only 11% or so of my net dps.
I left all effects in Vulajin's spreadsheet the same as he keeps them, with only the changes I made to the talent tree as posted above, as well as turning off the use of tricks of the trade on cd, and and obviously using eviscerate in the rotation instead of envenom. Instant poison was applied to both weapons, and from an approximate 4460 dps, the spreadsheet showed an increase to 4541, an 81 dps increase. This was again, only using the sheet with the settings saved on the last version of the LK roguecraft spreadsheet, and as such the weapons being used were omen of ruin, and not webbed death, which would've likely resulted in a greater increase of damage with dual IP instead of DP/IP.
Because of the limited dps per point granted by TtT, the last two points of it could be swapped out for 2 points in murder for ulduar when it becomes available.
Please, if anyone can see any obvious or inherent problems with this, or this has indeed already been discussed, I would love to see/hear what became/becomes of this style.
Last edited by theldaran : 12/21/08 at 2:29 PM.
Everyone cries, everyone whines, everyone loves to complain. The only difference between those who we look up to and those we look down upon is when they cry, when they whine, and when they choose to complain.
Only questions left open are (without having poked around the calc pages of the sheets) how does the sheet handle mutilates without a deadly poison stack on the target or rather, does it just assume the target is poisoned because a) you use deadly poison or b) someone else is taking care of poisoning the target.
I guess i just want to ask, Do you really want to rely on someone else to make sure your mutilates hit for 50% more dmg.
edit: a quick check on the sheet, changing both hands to instant poison indeed makes you loose 50% mutilate dps.
These two statements contradict each other. If you really had been reading the forums, you would have seen tons of posts saying faster is better than slower at the same level of DPS. Also, use the spreadsheets.
But in this case, according to the spreadsheet, the slower one is better than the LPC because of stats. I just want to know if faster is still better, even though I should get a DPS increase for having a slower one with better stats in the mainhand.
Only questions left open are (without having poked around the calc pages of the sheets) how does the sheet handle mutilates without a deadly poison stack on the target or rather, does it just assume the target is poisoned because a) you use deadly poison or b) someone else is taking care of poisoning the target.
I guess i just want to ask, Do you really want to rely on someone else to make sure your mutilates hit for 50% more dmg.
edit: a quick check on the sheet, changing both hands to instant poison indeed makes you loose 50% mutilate dps.
In other words, in a raid situation, you'd likely outperform the DPS gain the sheet shows...
I left all effects in Vulajin's spreadsheet the same as he keeps them, with only the changes I made to the talent tree as posted above, as well as turning off the use of tricks of the trade on cd, and and obviously using eviscerate in the rotation instead of envenom. Instant poison was applied to both weapons, and from an approximate 4460 dps, the spreadsheet showed an increase to 4541, an 81 dps increase. This was again, only using the sheet with the settings saved on the last version of the LK roguecraft spreadsheet, and as such the weapons being used were omen of ruin, and not webbed death, which would've likely resulted in a greater increase of damage with dual IP instead of DP/IP.
As far as I can tell from how you've explained, you are comparing DPS output when using Tricks of the Trade (4460) against DPS output when not using Tricks of the Trade (4541). This is fundamentally an inaccurate comparison to make, because you are convoluting the DPS gain of not using Tricks of the Trade with the ostensible DPS gain from using dual IP and Eviscerate.
Allow me to better clarify, the original 4460 dps measurment when using DP/IP was with the same settings as the dps amounting to 4541 with IP/IP. I.e this change was made before I started messing around with anything else in the sheet and therefore tricks of the trade was disabled on BOTH calculations. One final note, before I head into Naxxramas for the next 4 hours and am unable to respond, I should mention a few more things.
Settings that showed 4460:
Deadly Poison- mainhand
Instant Poison- offhand
Use Tricks of the trade on cooldown- FALSE
Use Envenom instead of Eviscerate- TRUE
Rotation was set (obviously) to the optimal which was xE(CttC)xR.
Settings that showed 4541:
Instant Poison- mainhand
Instant Poison- offhand
Use Tricks of the trade on cooldown- FALSE
Use Envenom instead of Eviscerate- FALSE
Rotation- xE(CttC)xR
Final note:
To see how dual instant would react compared with dp/ip I added a large amount of haste... 300 Haste yielded roughly 14 dps more for ip/ip than dp/ip. This goes to show that the immediate idea that haste would scale better with IP/IP is probably correct, and that this may, in fact lead to a change in the original thinking that DP/IP is inherently better.
Last edited by theldaran : 12/21/08 at 5:29 PM.
Everyone cries, everyone whines, everyone loves to complain. The only difference between those who we look up to and those we look down upon is when they cry, when they whine, and when they choose to complain.
12/19/08, 11:53 AM
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