Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 310

Kal-El · 03/01/10, 3:32 AM

Hi, I've been doing research on these forums for a little while now, trying to tighten up my rotation and improve my dps. I have a couple questions I haven't found the answer too though.
First off, what is clipping your envenom?
Secondly, as a mut rogue, I vanish whenever I can for the overkill debuff. Should I be doing this, or saving it for specific times? I've heard bloodlust is a good time for it, but I don't know why that is.
Thanks

Onodrim · 03/01/10, 5:13 AM

About Envenom clipping: When you perform an Envenom, you recieve a buff called Envenom that increases your chance to apply Deadly Poison by 15% and your chance to apply Instant Poison by 75% for 1 second plus an additional second for each Combo Point used for that particular Envenom. That means you recieve the Envenom buff for six seconds if you perform a five Combo Point Envenom. If you perform another Envenom before the Envenom buff has run out, it's called clipping your Envenom buff. This isn't normally a problem, bar situations with BiS, or near-BiS gear, or in situations with increased Energy regeneration.

About Bloodlust/Heroism: Bloodlust increases your attack speed for 40 seconds. This will, all things being equal, increase your number of critical strikes in that time span which, in turn, will increase your Energy regeneration through Focused Attacks. Overkill also increases your Energy regeneration, and stacking both of them (Overkill and Bloodlust) will naturally increase your Energy regeneration even further allowing for more Mutilates and Envenoms. This can be a good thing, but not if it leads to Energy capping. Add to that: It can also be exactly one of those situations where you might experience Envenom clipping, which, generally, is sub-optimal (unless you'd otherwise cap out Energy).

Ezee · 03/01/10, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

There's also the possibility that the logs were tampered with to earn a top spot. It wouldn't be hard to falsify a log by compressing the time stamps.

I'm actually on my phone right now but there are plenty of short cooldown spells like PoM that could be checked to see if time was compressed. Deathbringers ability timers can also be checked.

Edit: Yeah, I'm home now and I'm even more suspicious of this log. It's literally plastered with things like:

[19:32:43.046] Gém casts Prayer of Mending on Drewon
[19:32:49.562] Gém casts Prayer of Mending on Gém

[19:33:15.421] Legomajja casts Aimed Shot on Blood Beast
[19:33:23.984] Legomajja casts Aimed Shot on Blood Beast

A few of these could be chocked up to lag or something but just about every action is slightly faster than it should be. I really hope that if it has been tampered with that this sort of thing isn't wide-spread or a lot of top parses come into question. I would think WoL would have some sort of simple heuristics to validate logs when uploaded but that may not be the case.

/wave

Nice conspiracy theory!

'Fraid not though. If there's something not quite right with our logs, I can assure you it's not because we've tampered with them. There's a possibility our upload guy has an issue. We'll look into it.

But yeah, we don't have the time nor the inclination (and we probably don't have the knowledge, if truth be told) to tamper with or purposely corrupt WoL logs over an extended period of time to get one of our members an epeen flexing spot on WoL. It's just not how we roll. Sorry to fuck with the fantasy. I do love a good intrigue myself

Happy stabbing!

Gém
Angelform healer of Lost (Ghostlands EU)

Rosvall · 03/01/10, 10:17 AM

Well, good to hear. I guess your logs might be excluded from ranking or something similar until the problem is resolved. On a side note, you have more than 1 high ranked due the corruption of the logs increasing damage and healing by 10-15%.

I guess most of these are invalid.

Ezee · 03/01/10, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

Well, good to hear. I guess your logs might be excluded from ranking or something similar until the problem is resolved. On a side note, you have more than 1 high ranked due the corruption of the logs increasing damage and healing by 10-15%.

I guess most of these are invalid.

I never look at the rankings. Didn't realise we had so many. lol.

And yeah, someone mentioned above that they'd contacted WoL. I'm guessing the logs will be excluded from rankings. Which is fine. I'm more concerned about us having an accurate representation of our raids to work from.

Upload guy says he thinks his clock is borked or something. Whatever that means. We'll have someone else logging from now on.

Cheers

Gém.

/end offtopic

Kal-El · 03/01/10, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Onodrim

About Envenom clipping: When you perform an Envenom, you recieve a buff called Envenom that increases your chance to apply Deadly Poison by 15% and your chance to apply Instant Poison by 75% for 1 second plus an additional second for each Combo Point used for that particular Envenom. That means you recieve the Envenom buff for six seconds if you perform a five Combo Point Envenom. If you perform another Envenom before the Envenom buff has run out, it's called clipping your Envenom buff. This isn't normally a problem, bar situations with BiS, or near-BiS gear, or in situations with increased Energy regeneration.

About Bloodlust/Heroism: Bloodlust increases your attack speed for 40 seconds. This will, all things being equal, increase your number of critical strikes in that time span which, in turn, will increase your Energy regeneration through Focused Attacks. Overkill also increases your Energy regeneration, and stacking both of them (Overkill and Bloodlust) will naturally increase your Energy regeneration even further allowing for more Mutilates and Envenoms. This can be a good thing, but not if it leads to Energy capping. Add to that: It can also be exactly one of those situations where you might experience Envenom clipping, which, generally, is sub-optimal (unless you'd otherwise cap out Energy).

First off, thanks.

So basically, I should be monitering my envenom buff, and timing my next envenom to run concurrently unless I energy cap, and then I'd just apply before the cap and start the cycle again.

In the second situation, with the heroism/overkill: I've never monitered my envenom buff before, I've just hit as soon as I have 4/5 cp's, so now that I will be monitering, if I find that I run into energy capping issues unless I start clipping the envenoms, which is a more optimal solution: 1) clip some envenoms or 2) don't stack the overkill with heroism.

Kal out

Rosvall · 03/02/10, 3:19 AM

You lose more damage by not using overkill. As in if you wait until Heroism is over, you might lose an overkill due fight being over before you get the cool down up again.

With that being said, I generally don't use overkill with heroism.

Onodrim · 03/02/10, 5:05 AM

In my experience, stacking Heroism and Overkill is generally not worthwhile. To superficially illustrate, I've taken a gander at the avarage durations for a few encounters that most players have tried a number of times (taken from WorldofLogs):

Lord Marrowgar: 274 seconds.
Lady Deathwhisper: 367 seconds.
Deathbringer Saurfang: 296 seconds.
Festergut: 286 seconds.
Rotface: 320 seconds.
Blood Prince Council: 334 seconds.
Professor Putricide: 502 seconds.

Presupposing you enter boss combat in stealth, you can keep Overkill up for the first 40 seconds of the encounter, provided you use Vanish as soon as the first Overkill buff runs out. That way, you should be able to use Vanish at 20, 200 and 380 seconds into the encounter.

That means you should be able to use Vanish twice during all of the above mentioned encounters and, thus, experience the Overkill effect for 60 seconds - or roughly 20% - of the fight duration. Additionally, depending on your raid, there's at least a chance that you might be able to perform Vanish three times on Lady Deathwhisper, Blood Prince Council and Putricide; which is certainly also the case for the Sindragosa and Lich King encounters.

Furthermore, you have to take into account that Heroism is oftentimes saved for a particular phase of a boss encounter. Most guilds use it when Lady Deathwhisper's Mana Barrier breaks, most guilds use it when Saurfang reaches 30% health, most guilds use it the first time Keleseth is affected by Invocation of Blood and so on. In those cases, purposefully saving Vanish for a Heroism burn phase will very likely reduce your potential Overkill uptime.

So, considering the risks involved with stacking Heroism and Overkill (Energy capping, Envenom clipping, reduction of overall potential Overkill uptime), I'd generally use Vanish on every cooldown; starting at 20 seconds into the fight.

Orionius · 03/02/10, 8:40 PM

I'm saving Vanish-immune for Putricide.

For 10s, when he @ 35%, in case an unlucky spawn of ooze.

For 25s, at 85% and 35% for same reason above, else onto Putri

Rosvall · 03/03/10, 2:46 AM

A general question on the same topic. When I vanish on Putricide I don't really vanish immune it, It's more that as long as I'm in stealth when the bomb lands it's safe. We got our mages also to do this with invis.

My question is: Can you shadow meld and avoid it?

Tinwhisker · 03/03/10, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

Can you shadow meld and avoid it?

None of our NElfs have been able to do it and I've not heard of or seen any outside my guild do it either. My guess is that you need a true aggro drop and while shadow meld is a full drop, it is only temporary and you are never actually removed from his aggro tabe.

I expect that if it actually did work, fade would work as well.

Rosvall · 03/03/10, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

None of our NElfs have been able to do it and I've not heard of or seen any outside my guild do it either. My guess is that you need a true aggro drop and while shadow meld is a full drop, it is only temporary and you are never actually removed from his aggro tabe.

I expect that if it actually did work, fade would work as well.

Ok, I was going for the "What tear gas don't see, tear gas don't hit" but I guess it's only rogues and mages then.

Joigahdenn · 03/03/10, 4:13 PM

Vanish removes you from combat, Shadowmeld only reduces (or drops) threat but you are still flagged as being in combat. Tear gas will hit anyone within its range (infinite I believe) who is in combat.

Classic · 03/03/10, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Joigahdenn

Tear gas will hit anyone within its range (infinite I believe) who is in combat.

I can say with certainy that I've never been stunned by the tear gas when I vanished at any point during the tear gas cast.

I'm 99% sure (it's vaguely possible I'm wrong since I haven't been specifically looking for this) that I have been dpsing a slime when he starts to cast tear gas, I vanish and immediately continue dpsing the slime and I don't get stunned. That makes me in combat when the cast finishes.

Ukagi · 03/03/10, 6:00 PM

Couldn't find via search, but lethality's tooltip isn't very clear. if I use, say, shadow dance to use ambush, does it benefit from lethality? Or does the talent not work that way?