Dacness

Hmmm, I need some help to understand something.
Expertise is supossed to be 2.0 EP, but, every time i check my spreadsheet and change around stuff to get my expertise up it shows me that my dps is going down. Can someone please help me with this? Thanks!

 

• Neto-

First off, EP is static, whereas the spreadsheet is not.

With that said, I believe the spreadsheet truncates expertise, meaning that sometimes changing an expertise gem will waste a lot of it's budget, as you only gain 1 expertise for 8.1975 rating - meaning you gain 1.95 expertise from a 16 expertise rating gem, instead of 2 expertise, so that .95 expertise is totally wasted. This is because you can only increase in expertise for .25% at a time, unlike hit or crit, where you can gain 0.17% hit. Make sure your expertise rounding isn't being affected. Also, when comparing X stat to Y, don't change gear but rather gems, perhaps that was the flaw.

Note on expertise rounding: recent findings say it might no longer be the case.

 

Dacness

Thank you Sir., then i'll do what i always do and that's spreading my sheet
Also I tested (in the sheet) Omen OH vs LPC and LPC came on top, that thing should be epic.

 

Lord Xar

Did the Darkmoon card Death get a bump with this latest change?

Darkmoon Card: Death now gives critical strike rating instead of haste.


************************************************************************************* *****

 

• Aldriana

Maybe a small one, but crit isn't actually that much more valuable than haste, so the card is still not particularly interesting.

 

theldaran

Ok. so basically with the discussion around ip/ip for mutilate, and it being validated as slighty higher dps than dp/ip there is another idea. As was previously stated, Vulajin and I both experienced anywhere from 50 dps to 80 dps increases after applying ip/ip instead of dp/ip and speccing into imp. eviscerate and taking two points out of murder and a point out of TtT. This idea I kind of stumbled upon while toying with the roguecraft spreadsheet right before naxx, so naturally I was in the mind set that murder would not be something I was going to spec into. I also assumed that with the loss of envenom and the neccesity of using eviscerate now that imp. eviscerate would easily come out on top of TtT in terms of dps value per point. I was mistaken.

NOTE: When doing this calculation you MUST keep deadly poison on one of the weapons in the spreadsheet so that mutilate is getting the 50% increase from its target being poisoned. (Without DP, the spreadsheet will not assume the target is afflicted with a poison).

In any event, TtT yeilded 44.66 dps on the nose (spreadsheet model still had Vulajin's gear input).
Imp. Evis yeilded 38.18 exactly.
(These dps values are for all 3 points in either respective talent, not one.)

This meant nothing to me yet though, because I assumed that since eviscerate recieves a percent increase of AP scaling with the ability per point spent, that naturally imp. evis would scale better with TtT because TtT offers a static increase of a constant 6% increase on mut crits... Again, I was incorrect. To deliberately make the results drastic and therefore easier to see/understand, I input 9000 AP into the spreadsheet to see how either ability would scale versus the other... Shockingly (and I am not yet sure why other than mutilate probably scaling better with AP than eviscerate) TtT jumped to an increase of 89.05 per 3 points while imp evis lagged behind at only a 63.62 dps increase.

So basically the point of this post was to revise my earlier proposal for how to spec to use ip/ip because it wasn't optimal. I am now aware that the traditional mutilate spec should be kept exactly the same way as it was before and the only change should be on the order of dagger speeds (totally crushing the idea that a slower mainhand may possibly be better while oh mut's have a 2x chance to proc) and of course the change to dual IP.

Some may now be thinking:
"What about still dropping the two points out of murder and putting them into imp eviscerate?"

A very good idea I think, although because Ulduar is around the corner, and imp evis only provides less than 13 dps per point spent, it seems more sensible to me to spec into murder, which will have far and away greater use in ulduar (and even now against Malygos and Sartharion). For those who are wondering if without points in imp evis if this spec is still viable against non murderable mobs, the answer is yes, the LOWEST possible increase is 27 dps approximately gained over the old mutialte dp/ip playstyle.
This number was arrived at by taking the lowest dps increase which Vulajin experienced in the order of 50 dps, and adding the extra 15 dps that TtT gives per point, and the subtracting this by the loss of all 3 points of imp. evis (so that those points could go into murder) which was 38.18 resulting in a net dps gain of about 27 dps total...

That dps gain is based against NON murderable mobs, on murderable mobs it will come out to be between 70-80 dps at Vulajin's gear level with 1.5 speed daggers. As dagger's get faster and gear gets better this margin will increase.

Everyone cries, everyone whines, everyone loves to complain. The only difference between those who we look up to and those we look down upon is when they cry, when they whine, and when they choose to complain.

 

• Aldriana

Well, using a hacked version of my Mutilate spreadsheet, I tried out double IP + eviscerate, and I'm finding it to be ~150 DPS behind with ideal gear. So it's not a totally implausible option, but it does definitely seem to be somewhat inferior, particularly given the other issues with it (reliant on other people to apply poisons, etc.)

 

theldaran

Are you positive Aldriana? I.e, have you manually adjusted the settings on the sheet (or however your's works, I am not particularly familiar with it, not for any other reason than I simply never have bothered to work with it) to show that the target is poisoned?. If not, that could easily account for the 150 dps and then the extra 50 or so dps you are lacking in lost mutilate damage.... Also, I took a look at your armory profile and if you have your gear input as having a 1.8 speed in your mainhand that would certainly also account for a very large loss in dps.

Honestly, (and again I am not a world class theorycrafter, I can only give this my best shot and hope what I am doing makes sense to the rest) I can't see how this would not out dps dp/ip. The only major loss here is the envenom buff loss, which I have to believe is partially lost dps anyway in that it is partially making up for the DP stacks and damage lost from envenom removing them to begin with. This coupled with the fact that envenom and eviscerate are comparable by all accounts anyway, that envenom receives no benefit from sunders and faerie fire as eviscerate does helps with this. On the other hand, Instant poison far and away out dpses deadly poison, even while using eviscerate in place of envenom to keep DP uptime as high as possible DP still only manages 11 - 12% in my own experiences. Obviously anecdotal evidence doesn't count for anything though, so for a moment let us again refer to the spreadsheet.

Again, with Vulajin's gear input into the sheet, and turning the use envenom instead of eviscerate setting to FALSE, we can see how much raw damage deadly poison and instat poison are doing together which was 995 approximately. What we can do to extrapulate the damage of each one is set both weapon enchants to IP. Once done so, poison damage will read approximately 1150 dps. We subtract 1150 from 995 and come up with 115; from this point we divide 995 by 2 (instant poison on one half, deadly poison on the other respectively) and because ADDING dual IP yielded 115 raw dps from dp/ip we add that to IP half of 995/2 which is 612 approximately. Likewise we subtract 115 from the deadly damage-> 995/2 - 115 which is approximately 383.

Ok, so with some rough, but spreadsheet backed math, we can gain a general understanding that while using eviscerate (which will hopefully grant 100% deadly uptime) deadly poison will yield 383 dps while instant poison (with 1.5 speed daggers) will yield 612. That is a difference of about 229 between dual instant and dp/ip without calculating in the lost envenom buff and overall greater envenom damage versus most raid mobs thus far. However, I highly doubt that 380 dps is what the envenom buff and the usage of the finisher instead of eviscerate amounts to which is what it would have to be to effectively reduce dps by 150. I would have to ask you how your sheet models envenom and its buff, or if it models the buff at all, Aldriana.
Thanks for your time once again.

My mistake, I left out one major point; I'm not quite sure in what situation during a boss mob there would NOT be poison on the boss. Hunters absolutely need serpent sting to be up at all times because of glyph of steady shot, and the simple fact that there is not a particularly good reason to let an instant cast DoT drop off a target. But assuming that all the hunters die and or are slackers, there also must be some sort of shortage of rogues, for the target to not be poisoned... Whether the rogue is combat, HaT, or traditional mut spec, you should have just as good a chance as hitting a mutilate during poison up time as if you yourself were applying the poisons.

In other words, I don't see how poison could feasably drop off during an extended boss mob fight, which is my primary concern (and I would think the primary concern of most rogues raiding Naxx 25; obviously if single target sustained dps was not the reason for the debate here we would not be having it. Rather we would be specced into combat going nuts with bladeflurry and fan and watching our overall damage rise...)

Everyone cries, everyone whines, everyone loves to complain. The only difference between those who we look up to and those we look down upon is when they cry, when they whine, and when they choose to complain.

 

• Aldriana

Yes, I accounted for the Mutilate poison thing. I made a few more tweaks and now am getting a difference of about 125 DPS. Here's the breakdown I come up with with my ideal Mutilate gear, using Envenom cycles:

White: 1856.25
Mutilate: 1111.95
Envenom: 515.36
Eviscerate: .76
Instant Poison: 820.56
Deadly Poison: 423.21
Rupture: 394.94

Total: 5123.03 DPS

Converting over to use Eviscerate instead of Envenom, with the same gear, I get:

White: 1856.23
Mutilate: 1095.67
Eviscerate: 476.66
Instant Poison: 1175.13
Rupture: 395.13

Total: 4998.82 DPS

So: white damage is effectively unchanged, as is Rupture damage; we lose a bit of Mutilate DPS (about 16 DPS) due to the loss of one point of TtT. However, the major differences are that you gain 355 DPS of Instant Poison damage, but lose 423 DPS of Deadly Poison (a net loss), plus lose an additional 40 DPS of Evis/Envenom damage, coming out down about 125 DPS overall. Now, by tweaking gear and stuff you might be able to recover some small part of that, but I don't think you're going to make up 125 DPS that way.

 

• Neto-

Is that assuming you Envenom 0.5~ seconds or less after a Deadly Poison tick, Ald?

 

• Aldriana

Yes, it is. But even if you make no effort to time your envenoms whatsoever, it's still 75 DPS ahead. A lesser margin, to be sure, but ahead is ahead.

 

theldaran

Strange, the spreadsheets are completely at odds on this. On one hand I have discovered that TtT is indeed optimal> imp eviscerate and that the same exact spec should be kept for ip/ip.
The part where I am having issues is right up ahead; when you are showing the dp/ip breakdown, instant poison is showing up as 820.56 with deadly being almost only half at 423.21. This makes sense except when you switch to ip/ip, the extra instant poison doesn't seem to apply nearly as often, you come out with a net damage on the second instant poison being literally less than half of the first (in reference to the instant poison breakdown in dp/ip.)

The envenom buff will obviously partially account for this, but is the evenom buff going to add 1/2 - 1/3 extra ip procs? If you take the 1175.13 dps that IP did while dual wielding it and divide it by each hand you get 587.56.
So essentially the envenom buff would have to add 233 dps on the nose for this to be possible. I suppose that the envenom buff COULD add such a substantial number, but I highly doubt it considering that even though 15% is a fairly large margin, it is up sparatically during the fight, and it doesn't guarantee a certain number of extra procs over the 5-6 seconds it is up.

As previously mentioned though, the second instant poison in the ip/ip mix yielded only 354.47 from the original dp/ip where instant poison accounted for 820.56. So it goes to say that envenom would account for almost half or at least 1/3 of instant poison's net damage. This is impossible though, because envenom only adds 15% chance to proc and since the original chance to proc is 30%, it is effectively adding 1/3 more dps to instant poison while it is up, and its down time is substantial, I don't know exact numbers for it, Aldriana would know much more in detail and have a better hold on it than I... But in any event it doesn't seem plausible that a buff with a much higher downtime than uptime could indeed add somewhere in the realm of double to 1/3 extra damage to an ability in which the buff (which is up for only a short period) increases the proc rate by 1/3 total over the course of a fight.

Everyone cries, everyone whines, everyone loves to complain. The only difference between those who we look up to and those we look down upon is when they cry, when they whine, and when they choose to complain.

 

Chappi

After the past month of raiding with mutilate, I considered the following:
(1) Hit and haste have a strong positive correlation with envenom.
(2) Eviscerate gives me the freedom of refreshing SnD at will, at the cost of the armor reduction penalty.
(3) Faster weapons obviously play better with envenom.

With these observations, I would assume that stacking agility past the yellow hit cap would alter the difference between using envenom over eviscerate. If one's playstyle dictated the constant use of envenom (regardless of dp stacks on target), wouldn't that player be negatively affected by stacking agility over hit? Conversely, if a player chose eviscerate constantly, wouldn't he / she also be negatively affected if the character stacks hit?

In other words: does one's choice over eviscerate / envenom change EP weights in a significant manner?

 

Turncoat

Hello guys i could use some help choosing between this two rings, which one would you pick?

[Hemorrhaging Circle]

or

[Signet of Edward the Odd]

 

Chappi

While I don't know what you're using for your other ring, I would simple choose Hemorrhaging Circle. However, I am unsure how Signet of Edward the Odd specifically weighs EP-wise. The easiest way to tell is by plugging the two rings into the spreadsheet and observing the difference.

 

Turncoat

thx for your answer and time.

Im using [Sealing Ring of Grobbulus] together with one of those.

 

Leto

You can't quantify the instant poison dps gain like that. Remember that you'll get around 33% more procs from the offhand on average.

For a more accurate estimate of the instant poison dps gain using vulajin's sheet, set the finisher to eviscerate, put instant poison on the main hand and deadly on the offhand, using the daggers you intend, and possibly modify the spreadsheet to account for partial resists (I'm not sure if vulajin's does this, I forget).


Something else you can do to bring the estimate closer with aldriana's sheet is to switch to AP gems instead of agi if he hadn't done that already, but it won't make a 125 dps difference.

Rogue at heart.

 

theldaran

You are completely right Leto, I wasn't considering the double proc chance on the offhand, my mistake. Even still though, I believe my point remainds valid; the numbers are slightly scewed likely because of the double proc oh chance, but even knowing this, there is a large portion of dps that is lost and unaccounted for (or so it seems) in Aldriana's previous breakdown.

The major reason I continue to pursue this is because even with the same spec and gear (the only change I am making is switching mh to IP from DP, using eviscerate instead of envenom.) my own personal tests show IP/IP as potentially better.... Incoming anecdotal evidence, turn away now if this will send you into a rage!

Several 5 minute trials on level 80 grandmaster test dummies yielded some very interesting results (not heroic ones because I am not completely hit capped without a raid and I wanted to simulate conditions as if I were hit capped, err poison hit capped that is).
In any event, even without any poisons on the target, I was consistently seeing anywhere from 2230-2270 with dual IP.
DP/IP was ahead at about 2340- 2395 depending on the fight. This is without increased haste that raid settings bring, which do undoubtedly raise the dps of dual IP more than dp/ip... No sunder armor, faerie fire, or any other manner of armor reducing abilities either, which would boost eviscerate damage thus increasing dual IP dps more than DP/IP. Also, as I said, the target wasn't poisoned, so the 50% increased damage on mutilate was lost.

I am not intending this to prove anything about which set up is better, rather to explain why I believe that something is incorrect here... Because in my own personal testing and trials IP/IP seems to show potential for a notciable increase in dps, and the spreadsheets are at odds, so I'm not quite sure how to solve this issue other than more testing and waiting for possible advancements in the modeling techniques of some of the more mathematically challenging rogue talents.

Everyone cries, everyone whines, everyone loves to complain. The only difference between those who we look up to and those we look down upon is when they cry, when they whine, and when they choose to complain.

 

Perini

Hello all. I have a question and a request for advice.

1. Does the Adrenaline Rush Glyph still apply a reduction in the cooldown for Killing Spree? I believe this was a bug that was going to be fixed. Additionally, if the bug still exists, anybody happy with the results?

2. Looking for advice - I am currently rolled Undead, which has mostly PvP racial benefits. Since I play PvP only when forced to and I'm in a raiding guild, would it be worthwhile to roll up a Troll (for Berserking and Beastslaying) or would the benefits be negligible?

My Spreadsheet only changed by a total of 10 dps (3095 to 3085) so maybe not that critical, eh? :P

 

boner281

so when it reallycomes down to max damage and dps in heroics,raids and so on what is themost efficient spec. I originally lvled as sub and stayed sub all threw BC and with full merc i ran through anything with good top quality dps but it just wansnt cutting it in wrath. also this is my first time ever actually in a raiding guild. so my real question is if someone could tell me if they found a good pve spec (im sure its combat) and also if specd combat is hemo worth getting overkilling spree?.

 

Chappi

Most, if not all, of the information that you're requesting will be found in the first post of this thread: Pocket Guide to WotLK

 

dirtydeeds

Simple Question

My question is about the trinket you get from the Oracles called Oracle Talisman of Ablution
Oracle Talisman of Ablution - Item - World of Warcraft

Do I have to make the killing blow in order for this to proc? I am thinking about trash pulls in instances. Would it proc if I did damage to the target but did not land the killing blow?

Please do not respond if you don't actually know from experience. Please do not just guess an answer after reading the tooltip. Not trying to be a jerk, I just want to know for sure.

 

• Aldriana

So, there's a couple things going on here.

First, the envenom buff is a 50% increase in IP procs, and in the cycles I'm modeling it has uptime in the ballpark of 50%; as such, you'd expect it's benefit to be around 25% just from that.

Second: the first weapon procs IP more than the second - that's why we chose to put IP on it in the first place. The double OH procs, for instance, are not duplicated on the MH. Between this point and the previous one, I would expect to see the first hand do something like 30% more IP damage than the second.

Now, that said, as you note, we're clearly seeing a bigger gap than that; and the answer turns out to be, well, that I screwed up. When making the modifications I forgot to account for special attack procs and was basically only counting the autoattack IP procs - which is, admittedly, most of the damage IP does, but isn't quite all of it. So, running the correct numbers, we find that there should be another 150 IP damage or so, bringing the overall DPS to 5166 - slightly ahead of DP/Envenom. Of this, 1317.75 is Instant Poison, meaning that if both hands did equal damage, they would each do 659 DPS or so; a single hand instead does 820, which is 32.5% more - about where we expected.

So, all that said: yes, IP/Evis does seem to be slightly ahead of DP/Envenom... but there are some caveats to that. First, I think the sheet as written underestimates Deadly Poison damage. Not necessarily by a lot, mind you, but I'm fairly confident it does by at least a little. This will close the gap somewhat. And second, I still think the inability to poison the mob yourself is... concerning. On bosses, yes, it won't matter as much, but on trash and multitarget boss fights and many other such situations, one will not necessarily have the benefit of poison from other sources. And while it's true that one could put on Deadly Poison for this situation, you'd wind up being specced somewhat incorrectly to make optimal use of this due to the need to take Improved Eviscerate.

So, ultimately: IP/Evis may do marginally more damage in certain circumstances, but has some drawbacks which make me hesitant to recommend it. And the fact that it's as competitive as it is makes me think Envenom could probably use a slight buff - if Mut builds (who need to keep up poison to do optimal damage) are looking seriously at not keeping poison up, that seems to me to be a sign that the abilities are not balanced quite as well as they might be. So it would be my hope that Blizzard gives a glyph or tweaks a talent or some such thing to avoid this conflict of interest at some point - but we'll see what happens.

 

• Vulajin

Well, there are two issues that are kind of fused together here. One is that Eviscerate is strong enough compared to Envenom that it's okay to switch to it so you don't have to use DP anymore. The other is that IP is strong enough compared to DP (and scales with weapon speed) that it can be higher DPS to use dual IP rather than DP. I'm still hoping we'll see the day where they normalize IP damage to a percentage of your weapon damage.

 

Perini

1. Yes, it does, in case anybody is wondering, which certainly makes it an intriguing glyph.