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Old 05/24/10, 6:06 PM   #4936
Solodrow1
Glass Joe
 
Solodrow1's Avatar
 
Orc Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Stillgaze View Post
Greetings, I've finally decided to swap out my Mjolnir Runestone for the Mark of Supremacy after soft capping armor penetration. I eventually regemmed all of my yellow stark gems (AP/haste) to Fractured gems.

While reading these forums I happened to stumble by a post (I think it was from Aldriana or Mavanas, not sure though) saying that even though the spreadsheet wasnt suggesting to gem a few of my armor penetration gems, it might have been worth to regem ALL of them.

My issue is that my spreadsheet DPS has considerably gone down since this change, and I'm nowhere able to raid and gather data as I used to be when regularly raiding.

Would anybody who had the same issue mind helping me out trying to sort this issue in the easiest way?

Thanks in advance for any attention paid/eventual answers.

You really don't want to start turning all your gems to ArP gems until you get over 1000 ArP from gear. ArP scales up alot more when you have alot of it. Once you hit the soft cap, keep your gems optimized for other things until you can get more ArP from gear. Getting Deathbringer's Will will help alot with this too. Post a link to your armory and we can maybe help you with some ideas for maximizing your dps, but if you're going the ArP route, you will only want to grab your 2-piece T10.

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Old 05/24/10, 6:25 PM   #4937
Stillgaze
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Solodrow1 View Post
You really don't want to start turning all your gems to ArP gems until you get over 1000 ArP from gear. ArP scales up alot more when you have alot of it. Once you hit the soft cap, keep your gems optimized for other things until you can get more ArP from gear. Getting Deathbringer's Will will help alot with this too. Post a link to your armory and we can maybe help you with some ideas for maximizing your dps, but if you're going the ArP route, you will only want to grab your 2-piece T10.
Not having much time to raid, I'm having a hard time finding decent upgrades so I just gather anything that nets me more dps.

I was still wearing ulduar gear after a long break and had some of the ToC gear crafted. My armory is linked below the nickname in the forums so you can check it out by yourself.

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Old 05/24/10, 6:31 PM   #4938
tssguy123
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Mannoroth
I am still confused. I've been getting some heroic ICC gear, and I'm in mostly 245s/264s now.. I've been gemming for AP because the spreadsheet has been messing up and telling me to gem fully for haste (which is a mutilation rogue thing..?). I went to talk to a druid about joining their guild, and she told me that gemming for AP is wrong and even if I was ArPen soft capped with the trinket, that soft cap sucks.. I only pull like 9.7k DPS on Saurfang..

I'm also having confusion about when to pop killing spree? I usually run into battle with ToT on the tank and Blade Flurry popped until i build up 5 combo points for SnD.. when i have 5 combo points, i pop killing spree, then when it's over i pop SnD then adrenaline rush.. then just do 5 point Eviscerate/SnD rotation until Killing Spree comes back up..

So, how do I fix the spreadsheet, and how do I open? I feel like I'm losing a lot of DPS with my current opener.

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Old 05/24/10, 6:35 PM   #4939
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by tssguy123 View Post
I am still confused. I've been getting some heroic ICC gear, and I'm in mostly 245s/264s now.. I've been gemming for AP because the spreadsheet has been messing up and telling me to gem fully for haste (which is a mutilation rogue thing..?). I went to talk to a druid about joining their guild, and she told me that gemming for AP is wrong and even if I was ArPen soft capped with the trinket, that soft cap sucks.. I only pull like 9.7k DPS on Saurfang..
Haste is not neccessarily wrong, it's good for combat too. But try this, start putting ArP gems, see if you reach a cross over point where ArP jumps ahead. Because, the spreadsheet only shows you the current, so one gem may not be worth changing over to ArP, but 12 gems might push it over.

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Old 05/24/10, 9:53 PM   #4940
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
Get snd running before you do anything else. You autoattack during killing spree - for 20% more damage no less - so you never want to use it when snd is down. One point snd is all you need for its entire effect; it isn't evis where lower combo points mean a lesser effect. Sinister or garrote to open and press snd, every time. Then empty your energy bar, pop blade flurry and then killing spree right away. Refresh snd with as many combo points as you can build before the 1-pointer is going to fall off, and *now* you're ready to start your usual rotation.

Some people get 2 cps up to give them more breathing room before they snd, which only delays it by a gcd. I don't personally find it necessary, but you do you. Other people pop adrenaline rush immediately after ks is blown so that they can get a 5-point snd running on their first refresh. That is a compelling method because it also means adrenaline rush coincides with all of your ring/trinket/probably berserking procs. When you get the two-piece, don't have TotT already cast before you're hitting the mob because you're wasting that 15 energy. Just pop it after your garrote/snd opener when you're not at risk of energy capping.

Please fix some of those gems. Put a 10 exp/hit gem in your belt, shoulders and helm. You'll end up 2 expertise over cap instead of 12 and activate two additional (valuable) socket bonuses while you're at it. Right now you're trading 20 ap and 10 crit for the 12 agility and 30 hit that you could have. Notice that that's an entire extra gem's worth of stats.

Edit: The spreadsheet is suggesting haste because you have such an extraordinary amount of hit. Hit only affects white damage and poisons (directly), which is also true of haste. Your white/poison dps is so inflated relative to a typical rogue spread that the spreadsheet is simply trying to add the greatest benefit to your largest chunk of damage - but it is still correct in doing so. You'll see it stop suggesting haste when you lose a couple hundred hit points.

Last edited by Sarvius : 05/24/10 at 10:07 PM.

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Old 05/28/10, 9:39 AM   #4941
phindar
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Dentarg
hey guys!

I have a quick question for you about weapon swapping.

I have tried to increase my DPS by swapping weapons when I use some special abilities.
For example,
My main weapon is the [Bloodvenom Blade] with a max damage of 776
My OH weapon is the [Scourgeborne Waraxe] that is faster but has only a max damage of 442
So when using killing spree, I thought it would be much better to use on my OH my [Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows] with a maximum damage of 722
*My weapons are not heroic (can someone PM me how to chose non heroic items?)

I created a macro that will equip Quel'delar when doing killing spree and will equip the axe when doing SS. That way, it will go back to my faster weapon as soon as I start going through my regular rotation.
I have tried poisoning the "extra" weapon with instant or deadly poisons.

Perceived Outcome:
I do not see a DPS increase during fights. If I only use killing spree, I do get a DPS increase but during a real fight, I think I lose more DPS from the weapon swapping than what I get from the killing spree.
I have seen an advantage. After swapping my weapons I have seen 3 berserker buffs active. So, one procs during the killing spree and the other one after I swap my weapons.

I want to know what you think. I have read several posts and they have different information about swapping weapons. And most of the ones I found are for PVP.

I was thinking to create a macro to swap weapons for Fan of Knives. But, since this one that was easier did not really increase DPS, I am not sure I want to even try the other one.

So, should I just delete my macro and go for killing spree without swapping?

Last edited by phindar : 05/28/10 at 9:52 AM.

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Old 05/28/10, 10:24 AM   #4942
Zulkeir
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by phindar View Post
hey guys!
I have a quick question for you about weapon swapping.
...
I was thinking to create a macro to swap weapons for Fan of Knives.
...
So, should I just delete my macro and go for killing spree without swapping?
Ok, so the deal here is that you keep auto-attacking during KS, for 20% bonus damage no less. So your higher KS hits are being offset slightly by lower dps from Quel Delar. Do not forget to apply poisons to your off (bag) weapons as well, as both the KS and the auto hits can proc them. On top of both of those points, your OH hits as combat proc energy, switching to a lower speed weapon gives you less procs, and thereby less dps later (unless you are energy capping during KS).

Now for fan of knives, there are entirely different considerations. FoK gets a lot of its damage from the poisons on your weapons, since wound poison's proc chance is based on weapon speed, the slower weapons will have higher proc chances. I believe 100% chance on a 1.8 weapon. Take into account that all AoE is capped at 10 targets, but our application of poisons from FoK doesn't count as AoE, and you can net a nice amount of damage. The pulls on which this is useful are more far apart, and the method is usually not necessary, and very few boss fights can make use of this; LK being the only one I can think of. Combat during phase 1 can pop BF, target a ghoul and FoK to reflect all of the damage onto LK (was mentioned in ICC tips thread, I have never tried as I am mut). Mut can use the same idea to swap weapons and FOK to apply crippling to all of the valks upon them landing.

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Old 05/28/10, 5:05 PM   #4943
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
Wound is normalized around 1.4 speed weapons, so it has a 100% procrate on a 2.8 speed. But combat doesn't use wound poison, so it's unlikely you'll be hitting 100% procrate regardless. Neither mut nor combat achieves a 100% procrate with instant, even factoring in envenom and talents.

Aoe is not capped at 10 targets. There is an aoe cap for every aoe spell in the game, but that is a cap on how much *damage* it does per "wave." So as you get better gear, you will not hit the onyxian whelps harder and harder (apart from the exceptions below).

However, crits do not count against the cap. So If the cap were arbitrarily 40000 damage and half of your hits crit, you could actually exceed the "cap" and do 60,000. As Zulkeir said, poisons are not a part of the cap. If you really want to weapon swap for FoK, put a 1.8 dagger with berserking, instant poison and the highest dps possible into your offhand. It will hit harder than quel'delar.

The dps loss of weapon swapping (your swing timer resets) will outweigh any benefit you could get from using a slow weapon for those 5 extra hits. Don't forget that you don't have to swap once per ks but twice.

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Old 05/29/10, 11:15 AM   #4944
tssguy123
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Mannoroth
My ArPen question has been getting overlooked.. I've been searching around EJ and google to see how much the arpen soft cap is worth.. I can find stuff from bc for rogues, but everything else I've found is pretty much warriors and kitties.. So my question: how valueable is being ArPen soft capped with Needle Encrusted Scorpion? It seems like the horrible uptime of the trinket would make it not-so-good.

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Old 05/29/10, 12:04 PM   #4945
Jibini
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by tssguy123 View Post
My ArPen question has been getting overlooked.. I've been searching around EJ and google to see how much the arpen soft cap is worth.. I can find stuff from bc for rogues, but everything else I've found is pretty much warriors and kitties.. So my question: how valueable is being ArPen soft capped with Needle Encrusted Scorpion? It seems like the horrible uptime of the trinket would make it not-so-good.
From what I've found, it depends somewhat on the rest of your gear, and what other upgrades you have access to.

I know I'm using NES because WFS refuses to drop for me (24 Deathwhisper kills as a guild, and we've only seen 2).

I have MoS from my Assassination spec, and I've seen a lot of people suggesting that people using NES just switch to that and regem. No matter what I change around with regards to gems and the other pieces of gear I have available to me though, I cannot manage to find a setup in the spreadsheets where I have higher dps with MoS than with NES (usually a best case loss of about 70 dps).

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Old 05/29/10, 7:21 PM   #4946
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
The soft cap is not good. It's not good because it's not the hard cap. That doesn't make it worthless, but your "how valuable is the softcap" doesn't really mean anything. Just know that you want to ditch the soft cap as soon as you can, so aim for as many arpen pieces as possible. Trust the spreadsheet to know when you can drop the softcap, and be sure to try gemming almost entirely arpen when you are testing this on the sheet.

Until you breach a certain point, soft capping with NES will still be better dps than dropping it. But you want to pass that point as soon as you can. Your question was probably being overlooked because it doesn't really make sense in the framework of these forums.

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Old 05/30/10, 5:11 AM   #4947
F0xx
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Arthas (EU)
I played muti all wotlk but now specced combat cause i wanted to give a try and this way i can solo mount bosses etc. nvm

as of a single target encounter why is stacking Ks with Bladefury is to be recomended? i dont see the benefit in... and as we get close to energy caping in ks i dont see how extra combat potency energy through bf is at any gain.

Please enlighten me with your wisdom. Or did i miss something where bf+ks is not recomended an single targets ?

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Old 05/30/10, 5:41 AM   #4948
jorysaywut
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Mage
 
Windrunner
If I'm remembering correctly, KS increases damage during the duration of the attack by whatever percent, and stacking gives a small gain from applying that increased damage % to the extra haste from BF.

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Old 05/31/10, 12:39 PM   #4949
Averiel
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
<SPG>
Ysera
A question about armor debuff. I cannot seem to find a post about the order in calculating armor, I recall seeing a post about it before. I believe there are 3 main cases: Sunder, FF and your own personal ArP. If I have 100% ArP, that means the armor debuffs benefit me in no way. In which order is the debuffs applied? I know it doesn't really matter with ArP and Sunder, but is FF applied before or after the other two? I was also wondering if there is a certain point (ArP level - other than the obvious 100%) where if I was the only physical dps in a 10man, that applying Expose armor (no warrior tank) would be actually a DPS loss.

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Old 05/31/10, 6:24 PM   #4950
Sarvius
Don Flamenco
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Maiev
Armor reduction from armor pen and the armor reduced by sunder/faerie are independent. 100% armor pen does not remove 100% of a mob's armor, it just reduces the armor you can affect by 100%.

The answer to your second question is no. Sunder is too much of a dps increase to be dropped in exchange for some extra eviscerates/ruptures. Keep in mind that you will also never be the only person doing physical dps because all tanks do predominantly physical damage apart from paladins. In the unlikely situation that you are in a raid full of casters and only have 1 tank, who is a paladin, it will still be a dps increase to expose.

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