Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 340

contractkill · 08/27/10, 2:12 AM

I am currently a mutilate rogue but am very interested in going combat. I have been playing with the spreadsheet, trying to work out a good gear/gem setup to make a transition to combat but am not having very much luck. My net DPS loss is about 1500dps when I make the change, and I can only get my ArP up to about 850. My question is: on fights involving target switching, do you think my dps will actually go up compared to mutilate? Also, what should my ArP be at before deciding to go combat? It is going to be very difficult to collect ArP gear for an "offspec" so I would like to make the transition as soon as possible, without seeing too much of a dps drop.

Eustache · 08/27/10, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by contractkill

I am currently a mutilate rogue but am very interested in going combat. I have been playing with the spreadsheet, trying to work out a good gear/gem setup to make a transition to combat but am not having very much luck. My net DPS loss is about 1500dps when I make the change, and I can only get my ArP up to about 850. My question is: on fights involving target switching, do you think my dps will actually go up compared to mutilate? Also, what should my ArP be at before deciding to go combat? It is going to be very difficult to collect ArP gear for an "offspec" so I would like to make the transition as soon as possible, without seeing too much of a dps drop.

If you're looking at ICC as a whole, the only fights where there would be a chance of an increase would be Valithria. Gunship and possibly Blood Princes (and BP I'm not even sure). With such a huge disparaty, and also your lack of experience as combat in ICC, I'd build your combat gear further and, for example, train in ICC 10 runs to get a feeling for playing combat. If you are having problems handling adds at Lady (I'm always talking HC here, as non-HC's a joke anyway), it's burst on demand can be helpful but you'll lose a lot of damage on the (still pretty long) phases where you just dps the Lady.

As a conclusion (I looked at your armory and saw your combat gear which is in some parts still ToC-gear), I'd stay mutilate for all ICC-25 fights. This is all assuming your 1.5k DPS difference comes from a spreadsheet.

Shinshanker · 08/27/10, 7:14 AM

I have read and read a lot of posts relating to stacking armour penetration over agility and vice versa on a combat specced rogue. Recently a 6100 gear scored Rogue stated that stacking armour penetration is not any good for my current gear level me being only 5300GS and said i would be better off waiting till full T10 geared before i stack armour pen and that i would get a DPS improvement stacking agility at the moment.

Can this confusion please be answered.........and will this yet again change when cataclysm comes

My armoury link is here so you could see my current gear for a better feedback.

The World of Warcraft Armory - Shinshanker @ Caelestrasz - Profile

Vinn · 08/27/10, 7:35 AM

Stacking ArP has nothing to do with gear score. Even in t8 content; combat rogues were stacking ArP to reach soft cap when they managed to get Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone. The thing abour ArP is; the more you get it, the more powerful it becomes; so it is best to consult a spreadsheet or similar programs to see when you should start stacking ArP.

Kitteh · 08/27/10, 8:09 AM

Originally Posted by contractkill

I am currently a mutilate rogue but am very interested in going combat. I have been playing with the spreadsheet, trying to work out a good gear/gem setup to make a transition to combat but am not having very much luck. My net DPS loss is about 1500dps when I make the change, and I can only get my ArP up to about 850. My question is: on fights involving target switching, do you think my dps will actually go up compared to mutilate? Also, what should my ArP be at before deciding to go combat? It is going to be very difficult to collect ArP gear for an "offspec" so I would like to make the transition as soon as possible, without seeing too much of a dps drop.

Take a look at an all AP/haste combat set with the spreadsheet. If you're a good way off ArP cap (which you would be switching over) you'll probably find there's not HUUUGE (maybe 500ish dps) differences between muti and combat. It will allow you to gradually switch over as needed or can be a permanent fixture (so you do good dps in both specs thus eliminate the inherit weakness of each).

Sarvius · 08/27/10, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Shinshanker

Recently a 6100 gear scored Rogue stated that stacking armour penetration is not any good for my current gear level...

Though he's right that gs has nothing to do with armor pen, the rogue you spoke to was still correct in principle. You'll need a lot more armor pen before it will be valuable to stack. The larger issue is that you have some serious gemming issues; I'll be PMing you some information to avoid thread clutter.

Soldier62994 · 08/27/10, 6:02 PM

As assination, would it be more of a dps increase to vanish off cooldown or to save for the gas stuns?

Tinwhisker · 08/27/10, 6:04 PM

Use it for the gas stuns. Energy per second is a pittance compared to the damage you can do with an extra 10-15 seconds of DPS.

Rosvall · 08/30/10, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Use it for the gas stuns. Energy per second is a pittance compared to the damage you can do with an extra 10-15 seconds of DPS.

Well it all depends on the timing really.

Say it takes you 2 minutes 45 seconds to dps putricide from first tear gas to the second one. Then it would be benificial to vanish asap in the start. Eat the first tear gas. And then vanish the second tear gas instead (since with this timing you can not vanish both). The benefit from this compared to vanish first tear gas and using the second vanish at sub 35% is the you get more damage on being able to freely hit putricide sub 35 (Aka when everyone else is in the tear gas) vs. simply having the energy boost under that time.

But yeah, if dps is lower so there's at least 3 min between both tear gases, save vanish for both.

Reeshet · 08/31/10, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

Well it all depends on the timing really.

Say it takes you 2 minutes 45 seconds to dps putricide from first tear gas to the second one. Then it would be benificial to vanish asap in the start. Eat the first tear gas. And then vanish the second tear gas instead (since with this timing you can not vanish both). The benefit from this compared to vanish first tear gas and using the second vanish at sub 35% is the you get more damage on being able to freely hit putricide sub 35 (Aka when everyone else is in the tear gas) vs. simply having the energy boost under that time.

But yeah, if dps is lower so there's at least 3 min between both tear gases, save vanish for both.

I think you're logic is wrong here. Why do you think you get more damage vanishing the second tear gas?

Option 1:
Vanish first tear gas, extra time on boss, vanish again after second tear gas if fight goes that long

Option 2:
Ignore first tear gas, vanish on 2nd tear gas and know you won't be able to vanish again during fight.

Both of those options you're only vanishing one tear gas so damage there is equivalent, but at least with option 1 you may have ability to get Overkill buff during phase 3. The only option that *might* be more dps is

Option 3:
Vanish as soon as Overkill buff is off to get second Overkill buff, eat first tear gas, vanish during 2nd tear gas

However, this option requires you to KNOW that you wouldn't have time to vanish both tear gasses but that you COULD vanish once and still have vanish up before second tear gas. It seems unlikely that you would know this with such certainty that it would be better option and even more unlikely that you'd get full use of the second Overkill buff before the first tear gas came.

Far better is to Vanish the first tear gas and hope it's up for second tear gas and if it's not, use it as soon as it's available.

Zulkeir · 08/31/10, 5:36 PM

The call by Rosvall was that your decision would be based on the timing of the fight, with the 30% buff there are situations now where damage is high enough that you will not be able to vanish both transitions. The argument was not that Option 3 would grant more damage than option 1 (They are essentially equal, one gas phase, one overkill), but rather that DPS'ing during the 2nd tear gas nets more Damage than an Overkill in Phase 3.

The thought here is that since phase 3 is the "Burn Phase" of putricide, damage done during this phase is of more importance, hence vanishing the second teargas is drastically more important than vanishing the first, and If you have any indication of foreknowledge as to the length of the fight and tear gasses you should prioritize being able to vanish the second gas if possible, so long as you do not lose a Vanish.

Option 2 should never be considered; It is unrealistic to believe that you will be able to DPS PP to phase 3 in less time than Vanish will CD, and if you can, the question becomes essentially irrelevant as you wont need the help of gimmicky tricks to down him.

XeroFour · 08/31/10, 8:33 PM

Before I try this tomorrow and make a fool of myself because it was changed, can you still avoid Sindra's blistering cold by vanishing while she is casting?

Sarvius · 09/01/10, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Reeshet

I think you're logic is wrong here. Why do you think you get more damage vanishing the second tear gas?...

The only option that *might* be more dps is
Option 3:
Vanish as soon as Overkill buff is off to get second Overkill buff, eat first tear gas, vanish during 2nd tear gas

Your post was answered quite well by Zulkeir. But I'd like to add that option 3 was, in fact, precisely what Rosvall suggested in the first place. I think you might have misread his original post and that's the source of the confusion; this topic is pretty intuitive. Vanish both if you can, vanish 2nd and maximize overkill uptime if you can't.

Eustache · 09/01/10, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by XeroFour

Before I try this tomorrow and make a fool of myself because it was changed, can you still avoid Sindra's blistering cold by vanishing while she is casting?

Yes you can, and you also can do the same with any spell that uses the same mechanic. You can vanish Ick's poison nova, you can vanish the cat lady's fear in ulduar etc. etc. (to provide examples from different instances).

Elunee · 09/04/10, 11:25 AM

Hi!
Using the Aldrianna's Spreadsheet I get the heroic versions of WFS and TAIJ, it always says this is the best combination of trinkets.
And having the heroic versions of Lungbreaker and Rib Spreader I equipped de Lungbreaker to MH and Rib Spreader to OH because the spreadsheet tells that are a 4 DPS gain, I think this is because The lungbreaker has a 0.1+ damage per second.

Well and I looked up the #1 top dps on saurfang 25h by a rogue muti on a logs page (World Of Logs) and i found the top rogue haves very similar gear equal me, but they have Herkuml War token and Hc WFS and wields the Rib Spreader MH and Lbreaker OH.

My question is, is The Aldriannas Spreadsheet more accurate than the real logs? is simply this guy have a lot of luck in this try? What you recommend?

Thank you!