Very odd, so far at higher levels of AP (up to 12,000 hehehe) all the way down to a standard 4500 AP, imp eviscerate is showing to be anywhere from 6 dps to 32 dps inferior depending on the AP value. I'm not surprised that at a lower AP value that 3 points in TtT would come out ahead by 6 dps simply because its a static 6% increase in crit, and I would expect imp. evis to scale better with AP because it is supposedly granting a 7% flat increase to AP scaling for that ability per point. But, as previously mentioned, at least on the roguecraft spreadsheet, it doesn't appear to. In any event, 6 dps is really nothing to debate over, math is math and more dps IS more dps yet I don't think that 6 dps necessitates hours more of effort and time spent. At the same time though, to make one last very simple point on this topic, by taking all 3 points in TtT, and dropping imp evis for murder completely, you keep the traditional mutilate spec, and assuming the loss is a maximum of only 6 dps on NON murderable fights, while you gain dps on murderable fights, AND you are allowed to also switch back to DP/IP should the need arise (no other hunters, no other rogues) your dps isn't gimped at all as you have the same exact spec.

The only variables tend to be (for me at least), switching up toolbars/macros, changing out a slower dagger for a slightly fatster one in the MH (when going ip/ip) and actually changing the poisons over on your blades. I.e, the dps of both styles will be unchanged by a 'mid raid switch' so no respec is required, gear remains the same for both (obviously) and the rotation is strikingly similar (just evis when you would envenom).

What's the different between AEP, EP and DPS weights in the various sheets. Should I just ignore everything but EP?

EP, AEP and DPS are similar in concept, but very different in practice. They're all used to ultimately rate stats and which turns out to be better, but AEP and EP often cause misunderstandings.

The one and only accurate EP weighting is the one found in the spreadsheets. Any form of static EP will be inaccurate by definition - because it's static, and all your stats scale in synergy - but that doesn't make it meaningless, as static EP is, usually, good enough for having a rough idea, but never as accurate as using the spreadsheet.

Given my current gear and spec (51/13/7) the spreadsheet suggests that I should see 2043 DPS against a 13083 armor rating undead boss target while I am completely unbuffed. When I attack the target dummy I generally see approximately 1900 DPS over a three minute fight. I haven't been able to determine the armor value of the boss training dummy so it isn't clear to me how much it varies from the 13083 baseline in the spreadsheet. (An old post I found while searching suggests the dummy has 10900 armor, in which case the spreadsheet suggests I should see 2130 unbuffed with optimal play.)

Now, I may be wrong in assuming that I should be able to approach my theoretical maximum DPS on the target dummy but with a combat spec I am able to. I generally get very close to what the sheet suggests. With mutilate I fail by 140-200 DPS. I have concluded that I must be doing something suboptimal.

I'm unsure of what that is. For a three minute test fight I:

- Stealth.
- Prime HfB to 3 stacks.
- Open with garrote.
- Mutilate to 4+, S&D
- Cycle:
1) Mutilate to 4+, Rupture
2) Mutilate to 4+, Envenom
- Refresh HfB if it falls to 3 seconds.

I Cold Blood the first Envenom that happens to be 5 CP on a 5 stack DP.

I tend to pool before applying Rupture as there tends to be a few seconds left before the next application.

Is there something fundamental missing from my process? I ask in this thread because I see other threads suggesting that discrepancies between observed DPS and theoretical spreadsheet DPS are usually user error. I am trying to determine what I'm doing incorrectly.

This is my armory, although it is probably not relevant.

Dear collegues
from what I've read around with WOTLK ep values changed somehow.
I'm I right if I say that after 100 hit rating is better to push up ap/agi for a raid PvE combat rogue?
I'm a bit confused about hit having less value than agi/ap after the yellow cap.
Thanks.

Techinically going by straight EP, you'd never bother with any hit and always push up ap/agi. (hit is always below value of ap/agi)

Read http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

No, hit is hit, crit is crit. They are side by side on the attack table, there is no dual rolling for missed crits. I would say use a spreadsheet. Good gear tend to just have the stats you want to have, whether it'd be hit, exp, AP, agi, or whatever else.

Special attacks are double roll, which means that while under the specials cap, your observed crit chance (of specials) will be diminished. However this behavior is already being factored in when the EP weights were derived, so you do not need to consider this.

(I suppose poisons are double roll also, but again, it's already factored in.)

Is it possible to get enough haste, to make 2 slow daggers viable?

Any amount of haste you gain would be equally beneficial to both slow and fast weapons. Therefore it's not possible for haste to somehow push a slow weapon ahead of a fast weapon (when comparing equal DPS weapons). For example, 30% passive haste would bring a 1.8 dagger to an observed speed of approximately 1.385, but that same 30% passive haste would also bring a 1.4 dagger to an observed speed of approximately 1.077. The result is the 1.4 dagger is still going to be better.

No. Why would haste make slow daggers more viable?

There's no haste cap.

The Enchanting profession allows to enchant a bonus-stealth (increases your stealth slightly) onto a cloak. Does this enchantment bear any effect at all once you have attained L80, as well as having all the Stealth talents from the sub tree - or does it hit some kind of hidden cap therefore adding no further stealth?

Likewise so, I wonder if the Engi's Bonus Stealth Detection item (helm) adds to an increased detection chance, if all the bonus detection talents are chosen.

Yes, all of these things stack.

Is it normal if less than 100% slice uptime results in higher DPS as mutilate using a Xe/Yr CttC rotation?

Just wondering if I should be trying to get white hit cap via enchants, gems, food and Elixir or if I should be keeping special and poison capped and going for Power, crit, haste a little info would help plz.

I've been pretty succesfully raiding with a 5/22/44 build that im very happy with (only coming in behind a hunter or two in 25 mans, without exploiting the HAT bug). I just wanted to double check what poison(s) i should be using. Since i dont have any poison related abilities talented and i never use envenom, via simple math i'm assuming WP/WP is my best bet regardless of weapon speed? Right now i'm using Knife of Incision MH and Paper Cutter OH. Should i stick with WP/WP, or is this wrong and theres something i completely missed?

My breakdown has been about 30-45% white dmg, 30-60% evisc and 15-20% wound poison, depending on the fight and my group makeup, i know HAT is kind of a wonky spec and the breakdown can vary wildly between fights, but is this about where i should be? My poison damage makup is pretty constantly about 20% though, regardless of fight since i have SnD up 100% and my total damage just depends on how many evisc i can throw.

The Rogue spreadsheet doesn't give specific EP weights for my particular gear (that I'm aware of) yet I constantly read that these numbers fluctuate dramatically with gear.

Where or how can I determine my personal EP weights? I currently just use the ones in the Pocket Guide.

Is this: Savage Gladiator's Leather Helm better then: Headguard of Retaliation even with the loss of ap, just for the meta?

If so, is there a big difference?

You do not want to reach the white hit cap, besides it is over 700 (very unlikly to achieve with current gear), other stats provide a much bigger DPS boost.
But all of that has been covered already countless times in this thread alone, as well as in the pocket guide.

Use the spreadshet.


Thank god all these things are now mentioned for the first time. So people who actually read the threads wont ask this questiones EVER again. /sarcasm

Actually. I was wondering if there could be an FAQ kind of thread, which everyone should read first, and that would cover all the frequently asked questions or at least direct people to the relevant threads where it is being answered.

One of the things I really love about EJ is how the information is very cleanly organised. Previously, in the Rogue PvE DPS Theorycrafting Thread, and now in the Pocket Guide to WOTLK.

Maybe I'll try to pull together a quick FAQ and run it through the powers that be to see if it is worth putting up.

Now, at the risk of asking a question that has already been answered:
Is there a PvP/ Arena equivalent of EJ for rogues out there? I know EJ has PvP forums, but the information in there just isn't as well organised as the info on Rogue PvE.

Arenajunkies could be seen as the Arena counterpart to EJ, but the community is much more volatile while being simultaneously half as helpful.