I'm arguing with someone on rogue forums: Sinister Revenge/Webbed Death, or Webbed Death/Webbed Death?
Before someone says check the spreadsheet, I have and I'm correct. SR/WD is 14 DPS higher in my case, I was just hoping for a confirmation of some sort, as they're quoting shadowpanther at me.
I can't help but think something is wrong with the spreadsheet or perhaps people perception of an evisc comb build and rupt combat build.
I have two valorous set bonus, with my rupture glyph. Prior to that chest upgrade I had Chestguard of suspicion with 2 points in imp. eviscerate & evisc glyph (removed them from blood spaltter). My dps in naxx, at that time was on average 200 more overall and about about 220 more on boss fights -- about the same raid buffs with druids. Now, I added the valour chestpiece put in the rupture glyph and I am noticing ~200 lower dps overall and even more of a loss on boss fights. I don' get it.
Most everyone is saying rupture/envenom over eviscerate rotations and I am seeing a noticeable drop.
I have a mind to switch back to imp. evisc build and shine on that 2 piece rupture bonus as it doesn't really seem to be worth much at all.
Please advise. I feel confident my rotations are good given overall runs -- sure sometimes the rotations get mangled do to running and somesuch --
Don't Envenom. Supposed to just SnD and Rupture, maintain both at 100% if possible (snd still priority).
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am talking any combination of rupture/envenom (with SnD, of course) is less dps that SnD with eviscerate rotation. When I say rupture/envenom I am talking a mostly rupture rotation with envenom thrown in when some extra combo points are avail. Its not something I am sorta sure of. Its a noticeable difference. I can only conclude that the 10% eviscerate glyph coupled with warriors sunder armour just makes eviscerate a better option. The crits are much more frequent and literally are 3x the damage. I am not sure what is happening. Are people really comparing the two in real play or just going by what the spreadsheet says?
Through my personal testing on the dummies on my rogue, I've found that for combat Xs/5r/5e is superior to using envenom as the third finisher. You do not have any of the poison talents necessary to build up the stacks quickly enough to replace the loss of DP damage. Granted, I don't know why you would why you think you would be seeing 3x as much damage from Evis, unless you're talking about talented, glyphed Evis over untalented Envenom. If you are comparing the two, you need to stop, because you're comparing a buffed talent to a non buffed talent.
I started working on a cycle sheet for Combat DP/Envenom vs Evis to actually throw together some math on why Evis was a better 3rd finisher, but the holidays stopped all work on that front. Hopefully I can finish it here at work and get it up on the board at some point.
I am reading this topic and topics on wow forums, and I am little confused. From pocketguide it says the best for mutilate is to put deadly poison in MH, instant poison in OF. But the others are saying, the ideal poison for MH is instant poison, and deadly poison for OF.
As my current gear i am using 1.30 and 1.40 daggers, putting 1.30 in MH and 1.40 in OF. Poisons: Deadly poison MH, Instant poison OF. Am I doing it rite?
I am reading this topic and topics on wow forums, and I am little confused. From pocketguide it says the best for mutilate is to put deadly poison in MH, instant poison in OF. But the others are saying, the ideal poison for MH is instant poison, and deadly poison for OF.
The reason players are putting the faster dagger in their offhand with Instant Poison is because the offhand has a double chance to proc poisons during a Mutilate.
The slower offhand with Deadly Poison combo was based on now outdated theorycrafting.
Regarding back to a few week's-back question I posted about whether a 'plus stealth' enchantment had any effect as a L80 Rogue with the sub stealth talents, it's really started to itch me after extensive in-game testing that the enchantment's effect are (almost?) non existant, unlike the 'plus stealth detection' engi helm, which certainly does work. In stealth, walking (in the actual sense of the meaning) in a straight line towards another stealthed rogue, both hitting an instant-sap macro, both sides would always and without delay hit each other at the exact same moment. The cloak enchantment therefore seems absolutely and entirely useless. The same test wearing a plus stealth detection helm was done, and here it was evident that the helm's bonus did have effect.
Is there anyone who can positively confirm or reject this? I'd suppose it might as well be unintentional, in which case I should hot link it to the 911-blizzard forums. Anyhow, would be great if this could be looked into.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am talking any combination of rupture/envenom (with SnD, of course) is less dps that SnD with eviscerate rotation. When I say rupture/envenom I am talking a mostly rupture rotation with envenom thrown in when some extra combo points are avail. Its not something I am sorta sure of. Its a noticeable difference. I can only conclude that the 10% eviscerate glyph coupled with warriors sunder armour just makes eviscerate a better option. The crits are much more frequent and literally are 3x the damage. I am not sure what is happening. Are people really comparing the two in real play or just going by what the spreadsheet says?
I don't really understand what you're getting at. Yes, Envenom is lower dps than Evis for combat builds. It should indicate that in the spreadsheet as well, and anecdotally you seemed to have come across that conclusion as well. Don't Envenom. Are you sure you're using the spreadsheet correctly? Even if the Envenom box is set to true, it doesn't mean use Envenom if the cycle you set is XsYr, cause that only does SnD and Rupture and nothing else. Use the drop down to set it to XsYrZe to start messing with Envenom/Evis calcs.
Regarding back to a few week's-back question I posted about whether a 'plus stealth' enchantment had any effect as a L80 Rogue with the sub stealth talents, it's really started to itch me after extensive in-game testing that the enchantment's effect are (almost?) non existant, unlike the 'plus stealth detection' engi helm, which certainly does work. In stealth, walking (in the actual sense of the meaning) in a straight line towards another stealthed rogue, both hitting an instant-sap macro, both sides would always and without delay hit each other at the exact same moment. The cloak enchantment therefore seems absolutely and entirely useless. The same test wearing a plus stealth detection helm was done, and here it was evident that the helm's bonus did have effect.
Is there anyone who can positively confirm or reject this? I'd suppose it might as well be unintentional, in which case I should hot link it to the 911-blizzard forums. Anyhow, would be great if this could be looked into.
There are way too many variables in your test. I suggest doing the following:
Unequip the cloak with the stealth enchant. Get someone (can be any class really) to stand directly in front of you while you are stealthed. The other player should walk forward or backward until he reaches the farthest distance at which he can see you while stationary. (He should be facing toward you of course.) If the other player enables slow walking (press slash on numpad), he should be able to really fine tune the exact maximum distance at which he can see you without you disappearing.
Once the other player has found the sweet spot, tell him to stand still. Now equip your stealth cloak. If the cloak improves your stealth level further, you should disappear from the other player's view, even though he didn't move. You might even switch it on and off a few times to make sure that you keep reappearing and disappearing from the other player's view.
In BC, I did a test similar to this and was able to confirm that stealth effects do stack beyond what Master of Deception gives you. I suppose it could have changed, though, so it's worth retesting.
I don't really understand what you're getting at. Yes, Envenom is lower dps than Evis for combat builds. It should indicate that in the spreadsheet as well, and anecdotally you seemed to have come across that conclusion as well. Don't Envenom. Are you sure you're using the spreadsheet correctly? Even if the Envenom box is set to true, it doesn't mean use Envenom if the cycle you set is XsYr, cause that only does SnD and Rupture and nothing else. Use the drop down to set it to XsYrZe to start messing with Envenom/Evis calcs.
Ok. I should not have mentioned envenom as that is throwing off my unclear post :-). It was late when I posted it.
What I am finding definitively, is that given the following scenarious.
2 piece Valorous with rupture glyph (snd/ss the others)
spec: 15/51/5 (2 pts in blood splatter).
vs.
2 piece valours with eviscerate glyph (snd/ss the others)
or
1 piece valorous with chestpiece of suspicion with eviscerate glph
spec: 15/51/5 (no pts in blood splatter, 2 in improved eviscerate)
That any mention of rupture in the rotation reduces my dps - overall & boss encounters.
The eviscerates builds and eviscerate rotation, for me, clearly wins in dps over any rupture rotations for combat. Specc'ed respectively, of course.
I have read thru these forums, excuse If I overlooked something obvious :-), but I was always under the assumption that the only bone of contention was that eviscerate was better than evenom in a rupture build/rotation. I have read that. But I have not read anything about a eviscerate build (in combat) clearly beating a combat rupture build. meaning, no rupture in the rotation.
So, for me, not even sure outfitting valorous is even worth my time till I get 4 pieces. Anyways, just curious if others have also found what I have found.
After modeling my current gear in Mutilate vs Combat Fist/Dagger, I decided to switch to Mut given my weps (MH [Webbed Death] OH [Librarian's Paper Cutter]) and my personal dps tests in ORG run contrary to my modeled results. I'm doing almost identical 2060 dps each spec (poisons only, no consumables or buffs) with a slight occasional boost to mut in the neighborhood of 100 dps or so. I had significantly better dps with the 1.4/1.3 than 1.8/1.4 despite the increase in dps the latter offers. My glyphs for Combat are Sinister Strike / Slice and Dice / Rupture. I replaced Adrenaline Rush with Rupture because I'm not sure how much increased DPS the 1 minute cut on Killing Spree gives me on a raid boss, or if that bug will last beyond the next patch. With Mut my glyphs are Slice and Dice, Garrote and Rupture.
I'm pretty sure my cycle is optimal, but everyone on my server tells me that Combat is the highest dps spec of the two. The amounts of conflicting information I'm receiving are driving me nuts, so maybe you guys could help offer a consensus? I generally follow the Idiot's guide here and do DP/WP for Combat and DP/IP for Mut.
I am also not interested in speccing HaT, as I am not frequently grouped with other HaT specced rogues and have found it to be lackluster in my situation solo and in 5-10 mans.
Is there a point at which IP/IP + Eviscerate outdoes DP/IP + Envenom as mutilate? (assuming there is another rogue to keep up your poisons, obviously).
Is there a point at which IP/IP + Eviscerate outdoes DP/IP + Envenom as mutilate? (assuming there is another rogue to keep up your poisons, obviously).
There are way too many variables in your test. I suggest doing the following:
Unequip the cloak with the stealth enchant. Get someone (can be any class really) to stand directly in front of you while you are stealthed. The other player should walk forward or backward until he reaches the farthest distance at which he can see you while stationary. (He should be facing toward you of course.) If the other player enables slow walking (press slash on numpad), he should be able to really fine tune the exact maximum distance at which he can see you without you disappearing.
Once the other player has found the sweet spot, tell him to stand still. Now equip your stealth cloak. If the cloak improves your stealth level further, you should disappear from the other player's view, even though he didn't move. You might even switch it on and off a few times to make sure that you keep reappearing and disappearing from the other player's view.
In BC, I did a test similar to this and was able to confirm that stealth effects do stack beyond what Master of Deception gives you. I suppose it could have changed, though, so it's worth retesting.
Yeah. I did this test as well, exactly as you described it. When he was at maximum detect-range, I put on my stealth cloak and I didn't vanish.
Yeah. I did this test as well, exactly as you described it. When he was at maximum detect-range, I put on my stealth cloak and I didn't vanish.
Interesting. I'll run a similar test to verify once I get that enchant, but in the meantime: do you have another stealth increasing item that you can test with? Something like [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] or [Nightscape Boots]. One possibility is that the new cloak enchant is bugged, so it'd be worth seeing what happens with one of those items.
First, on the spreadsheet I'm using for my Mut build as provided by Ald, when I change gems from Delicate Scarlet Ruby to Precise Scarlet Ruby I show a DPS decrease despite only having 68 Expertise from gear so far. Is this a flaw of the spreadsheet or is my understanding of relative expertise importance flawed?
Second, is there a definitive best choice between Combat and Mutilate given optimal gear for either spec?
Check your expertise rounding. 1 expertise is equal to 8.195 expertise rating, therefore a Precise Scarlet Ruby is 1.952 expertise (16 / 8.195), and to get to 2.0 expertise, you need 16.39 expertise rating.
68 expertise rating / 8.195 = 8.29 expertise, adding +16 to that, you get to 84 expertise rating, or 10.25 expertise - .25 expertise is roughly 2 expertise rating, meaning that you only *effectively* gained 14 expertise rating from the 16 expertise rating gem. So, your expertise gem is worth 12.5% less than it "should" be, or the amount that the EP values say it is worth. I wouldn't be surprised if that's enough for an Agi gem to surpass it.
Last edited by Neto- : 01/04/09 at 9:45 PM.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
Check your expertise rounding. 1 expertise is equal to 8.195 expertise rating, therefore a Precise Scarlet Ruby is 1.952 expertise (16 / 8.195), and to get to 2.0 expertise, you need 16.39 expertise rating.
68 expertise rating / 8.195 = 8.29 expertise, adding +16 to that, you get to 84 expertise rating, or 10.25 expertise - .25 expertise is roughly 2 expertise rating, meaning that you only *effectively* gained 14 expertise rating from the 16 expertise rating gem. So, your expertise gem is worth 12.5% less than it "should" be, or the amount that the EP values say it is worth. I wouldn't be surprised if that's enough for an Agi gem to surpass it.
That would make some sense as the difference is very slight, ~4 DPS overall.
01/02/09, 11:25 PM
Now, imagine the wall is my Eviscerate button.
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