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Old 11/18/08, 5:45 PM   #46
Bues
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Muradin
Also Feist-Mok (or anyone else that is 80), since you're 80, have you raided at all? If yes, how does your damage compare to combat sword rogues?

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Old 11/18/08, 6:09 PM   #47
Sarah
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Al'Akir (EU)
What is the expertise cap at lvl 80?

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Old 11/18/08, 6:23 PM   #48
Darktangent
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
What is the top dps spec now? Shadowpanther has a 7/51/13 spec but I was thinking of something including lethality.

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Old 11/18/08, 6:25 PM   #49
Echophantom
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Garrosh
Originally Posted by Sarah View Post
What is the expertise cap at lvl 80?
Bosses still have a ~6.5% chance to dodge attacks, so the cap itself is unchanged. However, the amount of expertise rating needed to get 1 expertise has changed.

32.78998947 * 25 ~= 820 expertise rating for a rogue with 0/2 Weapon Expertise
32.78998947 * 20 ~= 656 for 1/2 Weapon Expertise
32.78998947 * 15 ~= 492 for 2/2 Weapon Expertise

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Old 11/18/08, 6:33 PM   #50
Ormack
Von Kaiser
 
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Undead Rogue
 
Shadow Council
Is Mongoose suffering the same dimnished effects post 70 that Crusader did post 60?

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Old 11/18/08, 7:40 PM   #51
Troisloeil
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Anybody have any idea what the heck this is? Totally clueless.

Rogue Passive (DND)

I've never seen it referenced before, but a 29% threat reduction I definitely want to know about. It's coming up under the Combat Tree.

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Old 11/18/08, 7:48 PM   #52
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Rogues have always had a 29% passive threat reduction. Apparently that is the actual ability that grants the reduction.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 11/18/08, 8:08 PM   #53
Troisloeil
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Ah! Thank you Vulajin!
I had no idea it was that much. Thought it was more like 10%. That's actually kind of alarming. If I'm getting a 29% threat reduction, I'm going to have a very serious gear discussion with some of my tanks. I can snatch aggro from all but my Prot warrior in about a heartbeat, and I have to use Feint a bit more then I care for lately early in fights. That's opening with a Garrote and using Rupture as the finisher. No burst finshers, it's gotten way to easy to get killed that way these days.
Man, do is miss Sanctuary!

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Old 11/18/08, 10:12 PM   #54
Bayushi-ko
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Echophantom View Post
Bosses still have a ~6.5% chance to dodge attacks, so the cap itself is unchanged. However, the amount of expertise rating needed to get 1 expertise has changed.

32.78998947 * 25 ~= 820 expertise rating for a rogue with 0/2 Weapon Expertise
32.78998947 * 20 ~= 656 for 1/2 Weapon Expertise
32.78998947 * 15 ~= 492 for 2/2 Weapon Expertise
If those numbers for expertise rating goals seem inflated to you, you'd be correct. The ~32.79 corresponds to 1% dodge/parry reduction, not to a single point of expertise (which would be ~8.2). The correct values should be:

32.79 * 6.50 ~= 214 (0/2 WE)
32.79 * 5.25 ~= 173 (1/2 WE)
32.79 * 4.00 ~= 132 (2/2 WE)

For Humans wielding swords (maces left out intentionally ):

32.79 * 5.75 ~= 189 (0/2 WE)
32.79 * 4.50 ~= 148 (1/2 WE)
32.79 * 3.25 ~= 107 (2/2 WE)

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Old 11/19/08, 1:23 AM   #55
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Bues View Post
Also Feist-Mok (or anyone else that is 80), since you're 80, have you raided at all? If yes, how does your damage compare to combat sword rogues?
I've found the two specs to be pretty comparable, BUT:

1) I'm terrible at playing mutilate - constantly screwing up the cycles and have let S'n'D drop a few times just by being energy starved and overestimating my regen - With practice, that'll improve, and bring mut's DPS up.

2) Combat is SIGNIFICANTLY better on trash, in 5 mans, boss fights with target swaps and adds - I just constantly find myself too energy starved to spend CP's as muti, and then the mob dies. Combat's shorter rampup time and better regen helps a lot here.

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Old 11/19/08, 1:41 AM   #56
Echophantom
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Garrosh
Originally Posted by Bayushi-ko View Post
If those numbers for expertise rating goals seem inflated to you, you'd be correct. The ~32.79 corresponds to 1% dodge/parry reduction, not to a single point of expertise (which would be ~8.2). The correct values should be:

32.79 * 6.50 ~= 214 (0/2 WE)
32.79 * 5.25 ~= 173 (1/2 WE)
32.79 * 4.00 ~= 132 (2/2 WE)

For Humans wielding swords (maces left out intentionally ):

32.79 * 5.75 ~= 189 (0/2 WE)
32.79 * 4.50 ~= 148 (1/2 WE)
32.79 * 3.25 ~= 107 (2/2 WE)
That did seem way inflated to me, yeah. That'll teach me to try and do simple math while I'm tired. Thanks for the correction

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Old 11/19/08, 2:00 AM   #57
ohnoes
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Bues View Post
Also Feist-Mok (or anyone else that is 80), since you're 80, have you raided at all? If yes, how does your damage compare to combat sword rogues?
I've raided Naxx 25 man twice now, also Sartharion and Malygos 25 man. Combat and mut seem to do pretty similar damage, one to me doesn't seem like a clear winner, however I am very disappointed with the way rogues are currently, going from the 1 or 2 spot to 7th or 8th is a little ridiculous and I am seriously hoping for an overhaul providing us with more DPS somehow. Hunters/Warriors/Locks/Enhance shamans just kill the meters at the moment in my guild.

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Old 11/19/08, 2:23 AM   #58
KingZer0
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Sen'jin (EU)
Greetings,

as someone in here alreadly mentioned what about the spec 7/51/13 Shadowpanther is refering to.
It lacks Lethality and Vigor but has Blood Spatter and Serrated Blades.
But if i look at the EP Charts i am wondering if this Spec would really outperform every other combat spec cause Armor Penetration isn`t valued very high.
Can someone talk a little bit more about that spec which is said to be the top dps one for combat.

Another thing i would like to ask is the stuff with poisons. Someone already told me that as long as u didn`t get points in improved poisons Wound Poison is always the better choice. If u do take points in Improved Poisons it depends on your Attackpower when Instant Poison outperforms Wound Poison.

So far so good. But now what should we take on the offhand? Would it be better to go for dual Wound Poison on both weapons or is it better to still take Deadly Poison for the offhand? There might be a difference if we are talking about raids or 5mans cause i guess Deadly Poison needs it time to stack and do its DoT damage.

The last question if u don`t mind is simply Envenmom vs. Evicerate for combat specs. I get some decent numbers out of Evicerate even without speccing Improved Eviscerate where as Envenom can`t compete with it but maybe it scales better in a raid environment i am just curious. Of course if your advice is go dual Wound Poison then it alwys has to be Eviscerate. What do you suggest. Is it even worth to put 3 Points in improved Evi?

Thanks in advance for your help.

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Old 11/19/08, 4:58 AM   #59
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by KingZer0 View Post
Greetings,
Can someone talk a little bit more about that spec which is said to be the top dps one for combat.

So far so good. But now what should we take on the offhand? Would it be better to go for dual Wound Poison on both weapons or is it better to still take Deadly Poison for the offhand? There might be a difference if we are talking about raids or 5mans cause i guess Deadly Poison needs it time to stack and do its DoT damage.
Wound/Deadly with Wound on the faster weapon.

As to the spec, different models and different spreadsheets have given different numbers w/r/t 7/51/13 vs. 15/51/5.

Personally, I've opted for the former, because if the DPS is close enough to cause dispute, it won't be noticeable in the flurry of gear changes happening at the moment, and being able to spec Camo and Dirty Tricks in a raid build is quite nice.

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Old 11/19/08, 5:04 AM   #60
Imiut
Pleading the 2nd
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
Wound/Deadly with Wound on the faster weapon.
Sorry to correct, but this should state 'on the weapon hitting the target the most'. Based on multiple factors, this can also be your 2.6 main hand.

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