Bues

Yeah I can defiantly agree. Since I've started raiding on my rogue since 70 (played a warrior, and then quit and stopped playing alliance and rerolled horde), I've always been Combat Swords. At the moment, mutilate build does seem a little to energy starved. And yeah mutilate rotation defiantly takes some practice, a lot of things you have keep up, rotating envenom/rupture, etc. It would be nice if maybe mutilate was 40 points or the energy from "Focused Attacks" would increase from to 5. Although, that could make the build a little OP for PvP.

That's defiantly dissatisfying. Other classes bring more raid ultility to the raid and all we have is Tricks of the trade. If we aren't top dps, than why would a raid leader want a rogue where they could get any other class that would benefit the raid more.

 

Ashere

We had basically the same problem in early TBC:
rogues didn't pick up their good scaling yet, since the required gear just didn't exist pre-raid (no, good PvP weapons weren't available through sitting out a dozen AV's yet), a couple of bosses were extremely melee unfriendly, and on top of that, craftables for casters were just plain better. It was bad enough for some guilds to not even bring a single rogue to Kara or Gruul during the first few months.
But, some tweaking happened, we got our wellfare weapons, and things turned way better.

Similar things will happen again if rogues turn out lack-luster. And even if rogues don't top damagemeters on every fight, Blizz will make sure that rogues are going to deal more damage than other classes for players of similar skill and in similar gear. Not as much more as it used to be, but enough to be a valuable addition to a raid. The "similar damage for all classes" statement allows for a broader definition than many people assume it to be, and it's a very careful choice of words Blizz used there.

So overall: I advice you not to be too pessimistic about things as they seem now, and on top of that, a guild denying rogues a raid spot for any other reason than lack of skill is plain stupid, since it makes the gearing up process for the rogue harder, which means the rogue won't be geared for following instances in progress, which means the guild will not have the properly equiped rogues available when they DO want them.

Yes, a long rant, but I hope I kept it simple, and remember, this is a Q&A thread, not a discussion one.

 

Kumar

Well, IMO we can only truly compare DPS after everybody in the raid is in non-outland gear from Naxx and the other raids.

 

Asmodeu

This isnt exactly on topic the way things are heading, but here goes.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to survive patchwerk? I stood in the poison until i had ~500 hp, waited ~10 seconds for the tank and OT to be sure targets, then went in and got gibbed instantly.

I'm stumped. I've tried aggro, hitbox, hp (as its supposed to be), and i always end up getting gibbed. Our regular raid runs with 2 rogues and an enh as our melee, and they are considering switching us out for casters... that offhand is really nice.

 

Bues

This is true. I think for mutilate to be more viable in a raid environment, it needs a slight buff. Just seems to mana starved. Mutilate is the way to go for PvP for sure, but Combat swords still remains the best for PvE at least for now.

 

Kireiray

All I did was go in for one tick of slime, and just run in and dps the entire time. The only reason I can think of why you would be getting gibbed is the off tank not getting proper threat, or screwing something up, but it seems that you're sure they are doing it correctly.

---

I just got Omen of Ruin and i'm hoping to get a second one to fully switch to mutilate soon, and I have a few questions.

1. I understand that the poison hit cap is 393 (I understand that boomkins and shadowpriest talents no longer help melee hit rating?), and i'm currently sitting on 266. I don't plan to actively gem hit because after reading most of this thread, it seems that it's a less desirable stat then agi/expertise/crit.
2. With Sharp-Barbed Leather Belt ([Sharp-Barbed Leather Belt]), Shard, and Rapid Attack Gloves ([Rapid Attack Gloves]) I am at 124. Now.. I have no idea what the cap is, and if anyone would like to enlighten me, that would be appreciated. Currently I'm gemming agi/crit (agi/haste is a filler) as i'm worried about how well mutilate will perform under 20% crit, due to my use of mostly level 70 raid gear. Once I replace my boots and pants, Fizzik's with a mirror of truth, and the rest of my 70 gear with 80 blues or naxx epics, I should see a pretty decent increase in crit. Basically, what i'm trying to ask is if it is more dps to gem glinting over deadly in the situation i'm currently in.

2. I plan to use the cycle Mutilate -> SnD -> and then work into 4+r/4+e/4+e. Nobody on this server has the glyph of rupture yet, so I've yet to been able to do any testing regarding my rotation. This seems to be the highest dps rotation at the moment, and i'm worried because even as combat with the sinister strike glyph and around 28% crit raid buffed, I don't seem to generating many combo points extra at all. Does this also mean I should hold off on going mutilate and stay swords until my gear picks up?

3. My swords are the brutal blades, and I want to swap to mutilate because omen of ruin is a huge dps boost and seems to be one of the optimal main hand mutilate weapons due to it's low speed. If I can't get another, I'm using brutal gladiator's shiv offhand. I'm currently looking into getting an instance blue to replace that, but is it worth swapping from dual swords to these just for the reason of a decent main hand upgrade?

Thanks, and sorry if I asked any questions with painfully easy to find answers in this thread.

 

Wizz

Hello,
I've got some questions about mutilate raiding.
1) I've read somewhere that mutilate from offhand since 3.0.2 patch or wotlk release patch didnt get old penalty (-25%) and even got buff from DW talent (so +25% for muti from OH, right?), is it true? That's why all write about fast MH(instant poison), slow OH (deadly) is the best choice I suppose. Muti from OH got 125% weapon dmg + additional muti dmg.
2) Also question about rupture, should I use rupture more often than envenom with 4 cp? Better to keep up rupture most time I can than using envenom more often? For example - 4cp-rupture, snd 3secs left, 5cp-envenom, 4cp-rupture, 5cp-rupture, snd 3 secs left, 4cp-envenom - should I use kind of this rotation for rupturr-envenom or should I use more envenoms instead of rupture?
3) What about double instant-instant with muti raiding? Evisc. glyph +10% crit, poisoned boss for +50% muti dmg from other rogues, 4+r, 4+e rotation I think, so we get less dmg from evisc. compaired to envenom that ignores armor, but getting much more dmg from 2nd instant instead of deadly, what will outweight? Any ideas?
4) I got 130 dps 1.3 blue dagger and 156 dps 1.8 epic dagger. I have to use 1.8 mh / 1.3 oh even if I lose muti dmg from oh using 1.3 instead of 1.8, because offhand melee dmg loss with 156dps from DW penalty will be much better than muti loss, right? And with 156 1.8 / 156 1.4 combo I have to use 1.4 mh/ 1.8 oh ?

Thanks for this thread btw

 

Darktangent

15/51/5 is what I thought. I've never heard of a build that goes down 13 in the sub tree.

 

Imiut

I don't think I have to explain what 51/13/7 means to you?

 

Inkm

I know this was discussed in the old thread, but since this is a Q&A thread I figure this is passable;

At what AP point does wound poison stop doing more damage then instant poison?

And another question;

What weapon enchant is "the one" at the moment? I figure this could be a bit different based on your other gear seeing as you can now get hit and crit enchants and what not, but still. It used to be so simple, just mongoose up and be done with it ;-).

 

• Feist-Mok

This depends on your spec. With no points in improved poisons, the answer is never.

With 4 or 5 points in Improved Poisons, the answer is low enough to not matter, Instant will be superior.

Don't have the numbers for 1-3 points handy, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing even resembling an optimal spec that doesn't either ignore or max imp. poisons, so it's kind of moot.

W/r/t enchants, it'll probably wind up being Berzerking. The mats will be pretty prohibitive until people start sharding significant quantities of Naxx loot though.

 

MissnL1nK

I don't see many Combat rogues spec'n for Improved Poisons in the expansion. You have to give up too much to get it and it doesn't seem worth it.

One thing I am wondering, is Deadly Poison worth using in a combat build now? The reason I ask this is because I am getting conflicting results on damage meters with Wound/Wound, Wound/Instant, and Wound/Deadly.

So far I am getting the most dps from Wound/Wound.

Does anyone else find this a reasonable question or do I simply need to get more AP before I can make a decent comparison.

 

Nerevarine

Wound/Deadly should be the best for Bosses, not sure if you are just browsing over the entire dps For trash you may use W/W if you want the extra trash mob DPS =)

 

MissnL1nK

In my situation right now I am sure I need to hit the poison cap, which I haven't yet, but I have seen my Deadly Poison stacks drop often. I usually shiv one on if I see it about to drop but recently I have been letting it proc on its own just see how bad the proc's are at a low hit rating.

I still want to see some solid proof to the claim though instead of people just saying its better. That sounds too much like a TBC frame of mind.

 

Kumar

From what I can see, Mongoose still seems best till Beserking is modeled, but I would think the 400 AP proc will be more beneficial than Mongoose. There is the Accuracy enchants (25hit,25cri) too, but I am going into raiding with mongoosed swords.

 

Akka

I wish in no way to sound patronizing, but honestly, you can worry if you ever snatch aggro from your tank, period. With the enormous added threat generation from the last patch, it should never happen, and you should never have to even use feint. Just give him three seconds head at the start of the fight if he's a bit lacking in reflexes, but after that, if he ever lose aggro (except through special fight mechanics), it's time to have a chat with him.
I would like to add, though, that for Mutilate to perform ideally, you require fast daggers, which are quite hard to find in the game - seems there is a disconnect between class design team and item design team on this one, or that there is unintended consequences with the new talents - while it's quite easier to find swords or fist weapons with adequate speed.
As such, I think that Combat will be quite better than Mutilate until some farming is done and people manage to get the "good daggers".
Never if you have 0/5 in Improved Poisons.
Under 1000 if you have 5/5 Improved Poisons.
The +60 AP on one-hand weapon is the best I could find. Moongoose doesn't seem to be too far behind, though.

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

MissnL1nK

Another I was wondering, this time concerning Mutilate, is the speed of daggers. The old foundation was 2 slow daggers for max mutilate damage. But now it seems that you want 2 fast daggers, or a fast main and slow off. So my question is which is the better alternative and is this mandatory for the spec to be efficient? I am also assuming you are going to be using Wound/Deadly as the poisons of choice.

 

cutfang

Curious question, is your offtank a Bloodelf? I remember running ZA/BT with a pally OT and he was constantly ignored by Hateful Strikes/Cleaves when standing on the tank, until he actually stood right in the middle of the boss. Guess they have tiny hitboxes or something.

Got a question myself that I havn't had a chance to test yet, does the damage bonus from Tricks of the Trade stack if several are applied at once? Does it even stack with misdirect / other TotTs?

 

Kjallstrom

Is the engineering-only glove enchant (320 haste rating for 8 seconds, 2 minute cooldown) large enough and long enough to justify not getting the +hit or +agi enchant? My guess is no, because of the short duration and long cooldown (although it would be fun to stack it for big boss burst), but I thought I'd double-check.

 

Darktangent

I'm all kinds of confused now. What changed to make mutilate require fast daggers? Since when did AP have anything to do with poisons? And as far as enchants go, Accuracy is better than 50 AP. Edit: I'm not too sure if the procrate on mongoose goes down from 70 to 80 or not, anyone know?

 

MissnL1nK

I am wondering the same thing. I want someone to put up some solid evidence that fast is better. I understand the logic behind the poison procs and energy regen through crits but is it enough to cut your mutilate dmg down is what I am trying to understand.

And I still think that even with slow daggers mutilate can outdmg combat at the moment.

 

Kjallstrom

I know this is rehashing stuff from the old megathread, but I think this is an important point (and one I have lately been explaining to every rogue in our raiding alliance).

If you read the tooltips for both [Instant Poison] and [Wound Poison], their damage scales with your AP, albeit at different rates (this is why there's a break-even point). The trade-off pretty much only applies to Mutilate specs, as Combat or Subtlety wouldn't go deep enough in Assassination to put any points in Improved Poisons (and the AP-scaling curves never intersect if you have 0/5).

See drumbum's table in the original thread here

 

Darktangent

I find it very hard to believe that mutilate can outdps combat. I wouldn't think enough changed to make it that much better.

 

Solzzy

How exactly is gemming working now for WotlK im currently Sword/sword 5/51/13


I have been gemming like this:

Red: 12agi or better
yellow: hit + expertise
blue: 7agi + 11 stam

my stats are
750agi
2179 ap
196hit
18.21% crit
118 haste
77 expertise

PS: I am still in the process of learn the class and a friend told me this is a good place to find out how to improve.

 

MissnL1nK

The general opinion so far on gemming is to try to hit the poison cap then gem for agility. I want to say the poison cap is somewhere around 315 hit with 5/5 Precision, I am not sure that is just a rough guess.