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Old 01/06/09, 2:10 PM   #976
Haoli
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Ysera
Does spellpower increase the damage done by poisons? If so, the new Fish Feast coming out may be our best possible buff food.

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Old 01/06/09, 3:18 PM   #977
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Haoli View Post
Does spellpower increase the damage done by poisons? If so, the new Fish Feast coming out may be our best possible buff food.
I don't believe so. Been changed to scale with AP. And fish feast gives 80 AP regardless.

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Old 01/06/09, 3:21 PM   #978
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Quick test on the dummies in IF suggests spellpower has no effect on poison damage. I only tested spellpower food though, and only over ~100 poison procs, so it's not conclusive. I *did* see a difference from using AP food though. Guess I could go buy a set of spellpower greens and give it a proper test if people think it's worth it.

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Old 01/06/09, 6:36 PM   #979
Ena.the.rogue
Von Kaiser
 
Ena.the.rogue's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Korialstrasz
I know Combat/Backstab is not the optimal build at the moment. Nevertheless, I was hoping to get some info on how best to fill out the talents, considering that a Backstab build can't really get all that it would want.

This is as far as I can get and still feel confident:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The primary remaining candidates are:
Ruthlessness
Vile Poisons
Prey on the Weak
Relentless Strikes
Killing Spree

Point for point, how would those talents be ranked for a Backstab build? My feeling is that due to the lower frequency of Finishing Moves, Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness would not be worth as much as for other builds. Also, the high amount of poison damage we get these days makes Vile Poisons seem very appealing.

Another related question: would there be an particular benefit or drawback to using a fist offhand rather than a dagger offhand?

Edit:

Originally Posted by Haoli View Post
Does spellpower increase the damage done by poisons? If so, the new Fish Feast coming out may be our best possible buff food.
Everything I've read indicates that Rogues are just like DKs in that all of our abilities scale only with Attack Power, despite the fact that some abilities use the spell hit cap in their result calculation.

Last edited by Ena.the.rogue : 01/06/09 at 6:54 PM.

Dew. Be. Dew. Be. Dew.

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Old 01/06/09, 8:01 PM   #980
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Off the top of my head, I'd say that 13/51/7 probably would be the best DPS for a CD build. You without a doubt want Prey on the Weak, since the majority of your Backstabs will crit. Relentless Strikes, point for point, is still probably one of the best choices, and I'd think 5/5 in that and 3/5 Lethality is better than 5/5 Lethality and 3/5 RS.

Something like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'm not sure Blood Splatter would even be that great for the build, because you are most likely going to have a pretty low Rupture uptime, as it will take maybe ~20s to get to 5 CPs, which means cycle-wise you're probably looking at something like a 40-50% uptime. However there really aren't any other good choices, and as you said Ruthlessness may be questionable given how infrequently you would be doing finishers.

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Old 01/06/09, 8:39 PM   #981
luchin
Glass Joe
 
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Calide
Goblin Rogue
 
No WoW Account
A fellow rogue told me that some new information has been released stating that slow MH is now > fast MH for mut PVE dps. Is this true? Or should I still aim for 2 webbed?

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Old 01/06/09, 9:26 PM   #982
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Without a doubt, Webbed Death w/ IP is the best off-hand.

As for MH, it's a bit more up in the air. Vulajin's model suggests Sinister Revenge is the best MH, whereas Aldriana's suggests Webbed Death is.

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Old 01/06/09, 9:33 PM   #983
Neto-
Bald Bull
 
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
Well, as far as weapon speed goes, a fast MH is > a slow MH, given equal DPS/stats/etc. If the choice was between, say, Twilight Mist and Webbed Death, Webbed Death would be the clear winner.

Sinister Revenge versus Webbed Death is rather tricky, as Sinister Revenge is a whole tier ahead of Webbed Death (13 itemlevels); a consensus wasn't reached yet, but at this point, my money is on Webbed Death.

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 01/06/09, 9:46 PM   #984
luchin
Glass Joe
 
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Calide
Goblin Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Ok well atm I am MH Sinister Death and OH LPC, but hoping for a Webbed drop tonight. Or even murder.. But if webbed dropped then its better in the OH than running a MH Webbed OH Sinister right?

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Old 01/06/09, 11:21 PM   #985
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
First, I'm pretty sure an OH LPC is better than an OH Murder.

As for your second question, absolutely you want your faster dagger in the OH, with Instant Poison on it. This is to take advantage of the 2x OH poison proc chance you get when you Mutilate.

As for MH SR vs MH WD, to be honest I'd recommend picking up an SR if it drops anyways, because it's not like any other class would really want to use it (other than wasting it on a Hunter). Even if a WD MH is better, I have a hard time believing it's any more than a ~20 DPS difference @ 5k+ DPS (contrary to the ~40-50 DPS IIRC from Aldriana's sheet), and MH SR is inargubaly better for solo/PvP etc, compared to a MH WD.

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Old 01/06/09, 11:53 PM   #986
luchin
Glass Joe
 
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Calide
Goblin Rogue
 
No WoW Account
This is from a specifically PVE perspective as I already have a Sinister Revent / Twilight Mist for PVP.

Hypothetically, let's say I just got a webbed death. Would I be better running SR/WD or WD/SR?

I ask because SPanther says that

MH:
1. WD
2. SR

OH:
1. WD
2. Murder
3. DG Shiv
4. LPC

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Old 01/07/09, 4:37 AM   #987
kwinto
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Shadowsong (EU)
And what in this list suggest you to put SR into offhand? Of course SR/WD is best combo (at least until 226 ilvl fast dagger is introduced, with decent stats on it). And even if WD/WD might be slighty better on bosses - take a look at previous page discussion about dealing with trash - slower daggers are preferred in the area of burst damage and FoK.

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Old 01/07/09, 4:39 AM   #988
Loot
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Sporeggar (EU)
I doubt there is a clear answer to that. Given the fact that finishers are being done with the MH then WD/SR is the choice, but the weird mutilate double poison procs on the OH outweights that making SR/WD preferable. There is a catch tho, with low enough hit you may find yourself not able to stack DP fast enough so then again WD/SR can help that

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Old 01/07/09, 5:35 AM   #989
 Ryazan
Weirdo Beaver
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Too much energy?

I currently face a problem where I actually have too much energy from time to time because of the Rupture "bug" while raiding as mutilate. Even though this is pretty situational, it still tends to happen quite often so it has started to bug me off a bit. Scenario is roughly as follows:

Rupture is up and running with plenty of ticks left, I have also refreshed HoB and SnD recently. I've gotten a Ruthlessness proc from the last Envenom and good Mutilate after it so I'm back at 4 combos again. Now I have plenty of time at this point to pool energy. Problem comes when the energy bar is getting full. Usually at this point my Rupture has 4-6 seconds left so I would consider refreshing it BUT if my last one has been either 5cp or done with temporarily increased AP, it's not possible use Rupture again before the old one has ran out.

I know using Shiv is baaaad but is there any point in this rare occasion to use it anyway or is waiting for the Rupture to run out a reasonable option? I'm guessing Envenom is probably the way to go but it might probably drop off my Rupture soon after but the extra poison procs and refreshed SnD from Envenom should cover the few lost Rupture ticks?

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Old 01/07/09, 5:45 AM   #990
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Ryazan View Post
I currently face a problem where I actually have too much energy from time to time because of the Rupture "bug" while raiding as mutilate. Even though this is pretty situational, it still tends to happen quite often so it has started to bug me off a bit. Scenario is roughly as follows:

Rupture is up and running with plenty of ticks left, I have also refreshed HoB and SnD recently. I've gotten a Ruthlessness proc from the last Envenom and good Mutilate after it so I'm back at 4 combos again. Now I have plenty of time at this point to pool energy. Problem comes when the energy bar is getting full. Usually at this point my Rupture has 4-6 seconds left so I would consider refreshing it BUT if my last one has been either 5cp or done with temporarily increased AP, it's not possible use Rupture again before the old one has ran out.

I know using Shiv is baaaad but is there any point in this rare occasion to use it anyway or is waiting for the Rupture to run out a reasonable option? I'm guessing Envenom is probably the way to go but it might probably drop off my Rupture soon after but the extra poison procs and refreshed SnD from Envenom should cover the few lost Rupture ticks?
first off, these moments are a perfect time to use Tricks of the Trade.

Second, the optimal solution is to envenom - there is no 'rule' that you should only envenom when slice and dice is running down. You should envenom as often as possible in between ruptures.

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Old 01/07/09, 5:55 AM   #991
Neto-
Bald Bull
 
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
Well, it depends on how much time left you have on Rupture, how much energy you have, and how much energy you expect to gain in the meantime. Sometimes, it might be better to refresh your HfB even if it has 7~ seconds left, other times, you'd rather Envenom. There are no rules set in stone for Mutilate, and as far as I can say, the worst choice would be letting your energy cap.

Though, using 2-3 Envenoms in one Rupture cycle is very possible and will happen, and as you get used to the spec, you will definitely "feel" when you want to Envenom, refresh HfB or just wait for Rupture to expire.

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 01/07/09, 6:27 AM   #992
kwinto
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Shadowsong (EU)
I'd say that as long as you have about 5 seconds of rupture left and you have just refreshed both SnD and HfB, you may just re-Mutilate, even if it means CP waste. It seems better to waste CP than energy and to have clear rotation maintained, but I haven't done any testing on this, because such situations, although happen, are too unpredictable for me to test.

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Old 01/07/09, 6:49 AM   #993
flaminghomer
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
What's the problem with letting Rupture drop for some seconds? You will never be able to sustain a 100% Rupture uptime.

In your scenario I'd rather just throw in another Envenom. If you are energy capped or close to being so, this will bring you to ~80-90 energy. Now you can easily mutilate once or twice - depending on wether Ruthlessness procs or not - during the next 5 seconds and reapply a 4 or 5 CP Rupture.

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Old 01/07/09, 7:26 AM   #994
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Bugfixes in the new PTR patch notes:

* Envenom: The tooltip values have been corrected to be accurate.
* Fan of Knives: All poisons will now trigger correctly when used with this ability.
* Honor Among Thieves: The bug where stacking multiple rogues with this talent caused them all to gain additional combo points has been fixed. In addition, it no longer cancels eating and drinking if a party member gains a critical strike while it is active.
* Killing Spree: This ability no longer breaks stealth if it fails due to all targets being out of range.
* Mutilate: this ability will no longer give poisons on the off-hand weapon two chances to be triggered.
* Turn the Tables: This talent no longer generates threat when it triggers.
Most important change for rogue theorycraft (HAT exploit aside) is the change to Mutilate offhand poison double procs.

Edit to add:
* Scrolls: Buffs from scrolls can now only be overwritten by more powerful scrolls.
This is a little unclear - does it mean that scrolls now stack with MoTW etc? Or is it that the scroll buff will just stay there (though inactive) and then kick in if MoTW gets dispelled?

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Old 01/07/09, 7:46 AM   #995
drumbum
King Hippo
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
I think it just means scroll buffs will just be inactive if a superior buff is present. I assume people were complaining that a 30 minute scroll buff was getting overwritten by a 2 minute raid buff.

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Old 01/07/09, 8:04 AM   #996
Rilias
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Arthas (EU)
This is a little unclear - does it mean that scrolls now stack with MoTW etc? Or is it that the scroll buff will just stay there (though inactive) and then kick in if MoTW gets dispelled?
They already do stack with MotW just not with the singlestat buffs.

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Old 01/07/09, 11:47 AM   #997
Manaba
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Blackrock
As songster has shown in the newest release of the 3.0.8 patch notes, mutilate will no longer have a double chance to proc the OH poison. This means that we will once again be putting the fast dagger in our MH with IP (finishers count as a MH attack and have a chance to proc MH poison) and the slower dagger in the OH with DP.

Last edited by Manaba : 01/07/09 at 2:59 PM. Reason: Accidentally wrote WP instead of DP for the correct OH poison

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Old 01/07/09, 11:56 AM   #998
zetto
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Outland (EU)
Originally Posted by Manaba View Post
As songster has shown in the newest release of the 3.0.8 patch notes, mutilate will no longer have a double chance to proc the OH poison. This means that we will once again be putting the fast dagger in our MH with IP (specials count as a MH attack and have a chance to proc MH poison) and the slower dagger in the OH with WP.
What about deadly and envenom then?

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Old 01/07/09, 12:09 PM   #999
yumepenguin
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by zetto View Post
What about deadly and envenom then?

Deadly will go on the OH and you can envenom as normal. There shouldn't be any change to dps with this.

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Old 01/07/09, 12:26 PM   #1000
Inkm
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by yumepenguin View Post
Deadly will go on the OH and you can envenom as normal. There shouldn't be any change to dps with this.
Then why do it?

The DPS potential is slightly higher when having your fastest weapon in the mainhand with IP and offhanding whatever else you have with DP, this is done to ensure the highest amount of instant poison applications as the mainhand is used for finishers and that too has a chance too proc instant poison.

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