Ena.the.rogue

Different scrolls don't stack with specific buffs. MotW, for example, doesn't stack with Scroll of Protection.

Dew. Be. Dew. Be. Dew.

 

yumepenguin

I meant there shouldn't be any Envenom/DP dps change with this. The IP change will obviously have an effect.

 

Dreshla

I have been using Vulajin's spreadsheet lately to try and test out gear changes like we all do constantly. I have run across the situation where the sheet actually lists using wound poison main hand and IP offhand is equivalent or better than using deadly poison at all. I was wondering if this is an error in my version of the sheet perhaps corrupting the true results, or if wound with the 10% bonus from talents scales enough better to make using that instead of deadly and evis instead of envenom work out. The only thing I could think of (this is more personal thought process, no numbers to support mind) is that the loss of deadly 5 stacks to envenom and the possible mutilates without any poison up make them a near wash.

Also obviously there will be a bit of scrambling now with the mutilate OH double proc being removed. Just trying to get a feel for where this take mutilate with comparison to combat fist/daggers now.

 

Elodar

I am new to the Mutilate spec and am having a little trouble with it. I leveled to 70 in Subtlety, then switched to Combate Swords for raiding in BC. I switched to Mutilate a couple days ago for WotLK raiding after reading the threads here. If I plug my gear into Vul's spreadsheet it shows I should be doing just over 3700 dps. The best I have been able to get so far is 2600 dps on 10-man Sartharion. My rotation is to build 3 HfB, open with Muti, SnD, Muti to 4+ CP, Rupture, Muti to 4+ Cp, Rupture/Envenom(depending on time left of Rupture), keeping HfB up the whole time. I tend to refresh HfB above 8 seconds left for fear of forgetting and having it drop off completely. Rupture falls off occasionally but I would say is up 90% of the time. SnD never drops. I am using DP on MH, and IP on OH. I also +40 hit food and Flask of Endless Rage. From what I have been able to read here it seems like this is the optimal rotation. Am I doing something wrong. To a degree I can see some DPS loss due to learning to play the spec, but a 1000 point dps loss seems a little excessive to me. Sorry for being a nub, and thank you to any who can help me.

 

saedo

Did you adjust the buffs to match what you'd get in your 10 man?

 

Manaba

First to note, spreadsheets model optimal play. Even though your cycle may be close to what is recommended, the part about refreshing HfB 8 seconds early is far from optimal. Your are spending more energy than necessary on HfB by doing so early which will lead to a drop from optimal dps.

That point aside, you need to check the buffs tab as you are almost certainly looking at spreadsheet dps that includes major buffs/debuffs which you lack in game (especially in a 10 man setting).

Edit: I'm too slow.

 

Tinwhisker

More to this because it's rarely if ever said on any forum: I have never reached the DPS mark that either sheet has put me at and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone you see posting here hasn't either (except on fights that are outside the model). Even when playing optimally, many fights have mechanics that prevent full DPS; that's the way it is and there's no changing it.

Remember, the sheets are tools to be used and not benchmarks to measure yourself (or anyone else) against. I've found that if you play WoW against the environment/mobs or other players and not against a spreadsheet you'll find everything is much more enjoyable.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Duskchill

No, I've no other items equiped that enhance my stealth level further. Have you managed to test this yet drumbum?

 

◊ chalon

Hmm, I ran a similar test with the cloak enchant and did seem to notice a slight difference in where I could see someone based on having the enchant or not. But maybe that was just a placebo effect. I did however notice that the effect of the Engineering goggles was more pronounced than the effect of the cloak.

Now that I think about it, I did actually run one test where it was me (NE w/ the cloak enchant) vs another NE w/out the cloak enchant but with goggles, and it did seem like he could 100% of the time get a jump on me, which may lend creedance to the idea that the particular cloak enchant could be bugged?

What would be a further test would be get a cloak with the old cloak enchant, which decidedly did work before.

 

Elodar

Owned

This is where i was making the error. Adjusting the buffs brought me much closed to what my actual was. Now I want to see what I can really do in a 25 man situation. Thank you for your help.

 

bustajibb

Been reading over many of the posts here, and have gotten a ton of info. Thanks

But I do have a couple of things I would like to ask. Im currently Combat/Fist(7/51/13), mostly for the fact the Crimson Steel is the best main hand Ive come across. I have Titansteel Shanker in my off hand. I also have Avool's Sword of Jin. Here comes my first question, would it help my dps if I switched out Endurance and Imp. Sprint to 4/5 Sword Specialization and off hand Avool's? Since they both have relatively the same dps?

Next, What is the hit cap for rogues? I have read over and over the pocketguide section on hit and maybe Im making it more complicated than I should. I currently have 371 hit rating, is this too low? Is it about average?

Thanks for your time

 

Cyllan

First question: Check the spreadsheets. Adding Sword Spec and a sword OH is likely a DPS upgrade, but that's what the spreadsheets are for.

Second, are you sure you read the pocket guide? First page: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/ There are no magic numbers. You should reach the yellow attack cap, and hit up to the poison hit cap is handy, but beyond that, it's likely better spent on other stats rather than hit.

 

◊ chalon

Ok, extensively tested this tonight. The new Stealth Armor cloak enchant without a doubt works. Also, the new cloak enchant is identical to the TBC Stealth cloak enchant.

 

Kuriostone

[Darkmoon Card: Berserker!] - I am hearing rumors that it will be changed in 3.0.8 to proc on attacks. If true, this would result in 105 crit rating with close to 100% uptime.

Would this change put Berserker! into competition with any notable trinkets for PvE content?

EDIT: My apologies - I added a flat 105 crit rating trinket to my spreadsheet, and found it comparable to [Chuchu's Tiny Box of Horrors] and below [Incisor Fragment] (my two current trinkets) in terms of raw dps.

Question answered.

 

Fusive

Unless someone can state otherwise, is it safe to assume that we'll be going back to Fast MH/Slow or Fast OH and IP/DP setups?

 

• Neto-

Yes. Faster/Fast, IP/DP, and most likely slow daggers are losing even more value, post 3.0.8.

 

Bangbus

I am currently in doubt of which combat spec is the best?

I have [Torment of the Banished] in MH and [Hatestrike] in OH specced 15/51/5.

Then I picked up [Kel'Thuzad's Reach] and [Anarchy], so now I wonder if a Combat fist spec with CQC 5/5 would be better?

Or should I spec CQC for fist in OH and then Sword specialization 4/5 for sword OH?

And how about expertise? Last night i raided with a rogue, who got almost same gear as me, though he only has a 130 dps MH, but still took me in dps sometimes. He got 37 expertise vs. mine 18.. So is that also a factor for him beating me?

 

kwinto

Does it mean that 2xWebbed will outperform Sinister/Webbed (or Webbed/Sinister)?

 

kwinto

How much is "sometimes" and "amlost same"? 13 of MH DPS (Equivalent of about 100 AP) may be pretty easily equalized by consumables, playstyle, raid situations, procs, cooldown usage. And I'm not quite sure if you're talking about expertise (with cap at 26, I think) or expertise rating?

 

Bangbus

I can understand Expertise is pretty important until 26 cap, right?

 

kwinto

Check the spreadsheet for your gear, really. "Pocket Guide" says it is worth about 1.6 AP (1 exp rating) for combat rogue, but while I was evaluating my gear (mid-level Naxx) about a month ago, I found Expertise pretty worthless (only about 1 AP). So I believe that it drastically changes with your gear.

 

Rilias

Expertise truncates in the sheet (wich models our understanding of it) and thus I would take anything people say they got from the spreadsheet regarding the value of Exp with a grain of salt.

Another short question:
Does Envenom have it's chance of applying MH-poison befor or after consuming the deadlystack?

 

• Aldriana

After. Also after the envenom buff activates. So if you have DP MH - as we currently do - there's a 55% chance as Mutilate to instantly reapply DP on Envenom. My current estimates indicate that this feature - while handy - is insufficient to warrant keeping DP on the MH for personal DPS once the bug is fixed next patch. However, it does mean that if you are trying to keep Master Poisoner up, it might be worth swapping DP and your slow weapon back to MH so as to maximize the buff uptime.

 

Rilias

Although I am not specced MP right now I was also thinking of Poisonuptime in the case where nobody else poisons the mob and you would then run into potential problems with mutilate.

 

kwinto

Yes, that's true. As I understand it, expertise (as chance to be dodged) changes 0,25% every 8 (sometimes 9) exp. rating. (8,197 rounded down). So usualy (four of five times) it is good assumption that one can compare it's "Total DPS" after adding [Precise Scarlet Ruby] (+16 exp), and after adding [Bright Scarlet Ruby] gem (+32 ap), dividing the second one by two.
On the other hand, one may try with Cardinal Ruby versions (+20 exp, +40 ap), or even by modifying "Gem" sheet and inserting own gems with respectively +(xpbase*conv) exp and +(xpbase*conv) ap.

The real problem with exp weight is not in calculation method but in its value on item and one's current expertise rating. I.e. +15 exp enchant on gloves may be worth only half it's value depending on how close to the next 8.197 multiple one's expertise rating is.

Correct me, if I'm wrong, please.