Hyperspeed Accelerator on Gloves being changed now to 10 seconds instead of 8, and cooldown being reduced to 1 minute.

Question is, willl this change make the Accelerators a comparable to Berserking (Or even Agility)?

I presume you mean Crusher not Berserking!

For my toon in particular, the hyperspeed Accels in their current form are only a 10dps fall from Crusher. With their duration increased by 25% and CD halfed, I can't wait to see what they'll be like - and a MUCH cheaper enchant too

Yes, it makes the Eng. glove enchant better than the [default enchant] but probably not as good as the benefit you get from say the LW wrist enchant over its [default enchant] (from my poor napkin math). Eng. can also make helms that are decent as well so factor in your own helm availability with that.

I believe the enchants on the spreadsheet are stored with the gear (don't have access to it at work). If you're feeling froggy, you should be able to unhide the 'Hands/Hand/Glove' sheet and input a static value for haste of about 56.something to get an idea what the benefit is.

I'm sure Vulajin will have a sheet update for 3.0.8 when it goes live though if you'd rather wait.

Very simple question for you guys since I've never played a rogue before hopefully you can help me.

I have a Rogue in my guild with decent gear but his DPS is terrible. Whats a very simple rotation for a 51/13/7 build? I'm trying to help this poor soul out.

I'd reccomend reading the first post in the Pocket Guide thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

This will have a "Quick and Dirty" mutilate rotation. I'd also reccomend pointing him to this forum in general as there are many useful posts and threads here.

Or tell him to try another spec if mutilate is too challenging. Mut takes some practice and is unlike anything a rogue might have been doing prior to the expansion. I'm the only rogue in my guild that jumped to mut when 3.0 hit to start practicing, and now I'm the only rogue left that's raiding.

With the FoK changes, Combat will have better burst AoE (AR every 5 min), but in terms of typical sustained AoE, Mutilate is probably better, with Focused Attacks and Overkill.

In terms of single-target DPS... from a theorycraft perspective, in ideal gear, the damage potential of the two builds is really not that different; but in practice, Mutilate seems to be running ahead. I haven't had a chance to figure out whether the theorycraft is wrong or if there just aren't as many well-geared combat rogues out there.

Considering how close they were before 3.0.8, after the patch, Webbed/Webbed should gain some advantage over Webbed/Sinister. Think about it: with Deadly Poison in your mainhand, you had all your finishers having a chance to apply it. By putting Deadly Poison in your OH, and with the double OH application bug no longer existing, your Deadly Poison will only apply from your auto attacks and one chance to apply it per Mutilate. So, when we used Sinister Revenge in the MH, comparing to Webbed Death, you would already have lower Deadly Poison uptime, but now that they're both on the OH, you will have even lower Deadly Poison uptime, and that would actually hurt slow daggers more than fast daggers.

Also including the glyph of AR, so that's down to 4 minutes. Seems like an oversight to me that rogues would be the only class with an entire tree completely devoid of real AoE, while the combat tree has two.


I dont do any theorycrafting, but I do remember that the Sword spec was over the top because of the extra attacks and all that came with them. There's a decided lack of main hand swords in Lich King that have impressed me, and I wonder if that was by design to get rogues more comitted to daggers and fists, per the blue post that I don't have a link to just pre-LK that said devs were looking to 'boost dagger rogues'. Maybe boosting dagger rogues meant giving rogues nowhere else to go.

edit: Just noticed the 50% dmg boost with daggers and FoK, but still doesn't make up for being able to spam it 3 or 4 times with adrenaline rush back to back.

..You know that Focused Attacks is incredible with FoK, yes? Considering you hit each target two times, at a 50% crit rate, you'll get 2 energy back / target, meaning that if you're using it on 12 targets, your FoK will cost roughly half - and that's without even counting Overkill, and the fact that Assassination has Imp Poisons/Vile Poisons. Assassination is definitely very strong for FoK (and I'd wager it will be downright better than Combat at it, too, considering Combat only comes close when the CDs are up).

This is exactly what I do. I am notorious in my guild for being a meter maid, so if I have extra energy and plenty of time, I will spam envenoms to see me move up the DPS meter :P

Quick question though, I use CB for envenoms. I assume this is the right thing do to...

EDIT: I did end up having WD drop for me the other night so now I am MH:SR OH:WD. Funny thing happened too.. A BM hunter rolled against me and had a higher PR(we use EPGP) but they gave it to me. As common sense would dictate a rogue gets more use from it... But the hunter was NOT happy and ended up raging at me, the officers, the GM. Quite the lol..

Are you sure about that? I can't seem to find a minimum range for Focused Attacks, as it says "Self" on the tooltip, and I tested it in game very briefly and I did gain 2 energy at range.

Edit: attaching screenshot.

No, I'm not even remotely sure about it. Hence the word "might". However, I have noticed that it's not uncommon to get significantly less FA procs than you get FoK crits, and some people I've talked to about it have performed some rough testing and their best current theory is that it's range-related. It may or may not be true, but it seems worth investigating further.

Edit: well, I can torpedo the range theory, as standing out of melee range of two target dummies and FoKing them yields Focused Attacks procs - though rather inconsistently. I've had crits that give energy, and crits that don't. So there is something going on here.

Edit 2: Actually, it appears what's happening is that only MH FoK crits return energy; OH FoK crits do not.

Yep, you're right; upon testing it further, when I used FoK with Cold Blood, I seemed to only gain one Focused Attacks proc. This behavior repeated itself when I did it again but hitting two dummies instead: 4 crits, 2 Focused Attacks procs.

Edit: And I got to the same conclusion that you did, although a little bit late. I also had my Fan of Knives dodged - that kind of negates the assumption that it was a ranged attack; although I did get a deflect as well (on the screenshot attached earlier).

Is this a bug? Or do these procs only register (on specials) for MH? How does it work for Mut? Does it apply to both hands?

Mutilate works correctly. If you crit with both hands, you get 2 FA procs; if only one hand procs, you only get 1 FA proc. So it would appear to be some sort of bug specific to FoK.

I'd be a little surprised if Blade Flurry works with FoK, but I honestly have no idea. If it does, then yes, combat AoE - at least, when you have cooldowns - would reign supreme.

I can't say whether it was meant that way or not, or if it translates to live servers, but it has appeared to work for me on the PTR.

edit: I'm seeing the speed buff working, cannot confirm whether the extra attack is also working.

Hi guys, recently I got my hands on a New dagger, Twilight Mist, which I chucked in mainhand, replacing Omen of Ruin. Yeah every thing is going fine, I then go and chuck berserking on it, which according to the spreadsheet, says i should be doing more DPS with.


I'm 51/13/7 with a 1.8MH dagger and 1.3 OH Dagger, the spreadsheet has given me the same rotation as a 1.5/1.3 rotation, but I'm doing way less DPS. Normally I can do around anywhere between 3-3.5k dps in naxx, however with my new dagger I'm struggling to get 3k. I obtained a steady 2.6k dps in 25 man and I'm just not happy with that, it should be higher, i'm positive. Did i make a bad choice by choosing the dagger over my old one?

I also found that despite what the spreadsheet says, previously with the 1.5/1.3 daggers i could just open with garrote, mutilate then S+D to start the cycle off while keeping a 4s/4r CttC cycle, now i had to change the whole start of the cycle with Garrote, Back stab and then S+D if i want to see anywhere near my old DPS, is changing cycles normal with changing dagger speeds?

All help is and will be appreciated, feel free to ask for anything you may need.


edit: silly spelling error.


Edit: Here is a WWS from 25 man Naxx and Sarth, shamefully I can't remember if i had the dagger on this raid or not.

Wow Web Stats

Just thought it may be there for easier evaluating.

I think it would come down to your weapon. Omen > Twilight mist for MH I believe. With poison damage and focused attacks obviously proccing more with faster weapons you are only really gimping yourself by putting TM in your MH...

Also, don't use BS. Ever. Ever.

From looking at the WWS of your Patchwerk, you made a lot of mistakes. Don't use Backstab. You should not drop SnD 2x. Your damage breakdown seems a bit off from what it should be. Are you sure you're running your cycle correctly? Your DPS should be substantially higher based on the gear you have (even taking into account the slow Patchwerk kill time).

All 25 man gear i have now, wasn't in that fight, but i agree, i did mess up alot, I'll switch back to the Omen of Ruin and just donate a shard for taking the TM, thanks about the advice on BS.

Okay, i just realized what I've been doing wrong, i haven't been pooling 60 energy before resetting my spenders, which I'm sure has been taking its toll. I'll continue working on things trying out different specs/gear/rotation until I'm happy with everything.