I'm mutilate spec - been since TBC, where I also raided with it. Obviously I've read up on the Pocket Guide to WotLK DPS, which indicated that the faster weapon should go in mainhand. My weapons are Omen of Ruin (epic, Naxx10 item, 1.50 speed) and Librarian's Paper Cutter (blue, worlddrop, 1.30 speed). I figured the cutter was supposed to go in mainhand with IP on it, Omen of Ruin in offhand with DP on it.
But recently a party member of mine told me to put the Omen in my mainhand because it was better, mentioning something else about ability damage not mattering below 1.70 speed? I didn't follow it, likely due to the time (2:00 or so) but it did catch my interest and I've been unable to let go of it.
So where to put what weapon, and where would that make my poisons go?
I can't get the expertise numbers to match. I do trust my spreadsheet on the cap so I'm not too worried, but I'd like to know how it works as well.
It sounds like there is some confusion in what exactly the Pocket Guide is saying, so I'll rephrase it like this:
To reach the expertise cap, you need a combined 26 expertise (6.5%) from all sources. If you obtain all of this from gear only, you would need 214 expertise rating.
If you are specced 2/2 Weapon Expertise, you will be awarded 10 expertise from the talent; therefore, you only need 16 additional expertise from your gear to reach the cap. This means you need 132 expertise rating from your gear to reach the cap.
If you are specced 2/2 Weapon Expertise *and* are a human rogue using a sword or mace, you will be awarded 10 expertise from the talent and 3 from the racial. Therefore, you only need 13 additional expertise from your gear to reach the cap. This means you need 107 expertise rating from your gear to reach the cap.
I'm mutilate spec - been since TBC, where I also raided with it. Obviously I've read up on the Pocket Guide to WotLK DPS, which indicated that the faster weapon should go in mainhand. My weapons are Omen of Ruin (epic, Naxx10 item, 1.50 speed) and Librarian's Paper Cutter (blue, worlddrop, 1.30 speed). I figured the cutter was supposed to go in mainhand with IP on it, Omen of Ruin in offhand with DP on it.
But recently a party member of mine told me to put the Omen in my mainhand because it was better, mentioning something else about ability damage not mattering below 1.70 speed? I didn't follow it, likely due to the time (2:00 or so) but it did catch my interest and I've been unable to let go of it.
So where to put what weapon, and where would that make my poisons go?
IP goes on the fastest weapon.
Which hand you wield your fastest weapon will change after 3.08. Current best practice is to put the weapon with IP on it in your OH. This takes advantage of the dual proc chance on Mutilate bug that will be fixed when 3.08 goes live.
When 3.08 goes live best practice will almost certain revert back to IP on your MH weapon, which dictates you using the fastest weapon there too.
Last edited by Krollin : 01/13/09 at 10:55 AM.
Reason: Added quote
IP goes on the fastest weapon.
Which hand you wield your fastest weapon will change after 3.08. Current best practice is to put the weapon with IP on it in your OH. This takes advantage of the dual proc chance on Mutilate bug that will be fixed when 3.08 goes live.
When 3.08 goes live best practice will almost certain revert back to IP on your MH weapon, which dictates you using the fastest weapon there too.
I was not aware of this bug... and mainly following official "rules" posted in above linked thread.
Also, I understand the logic behind faster weapon-->IP, but not why that should then go in mainhand.
Also a side-question: the Pocket guide to WotLK linked "rough" EP values. Now this is a system I've loved and adored (although also hated as of recent, because I lost ~200 hit rating to it, which simply feels uncomfortable), but are these values still being refined?
And out of interest, how are they defined in the first place? Not by guessing, I reckon. I've always admired the system and been baffled over how people found it out.
I was not aware of this bug... and mainly following official "rules" posted in above linked thread. Also, I understand the logic behind faster weapon-->IP, but not why that should then go in mainhand.
Also a side-question: the Pocket guide to WotLK linked "rough" EP values. Now this is a system I've loved and adored (although also hated as of recent, because I lost ~200 hit rating to it, which simply feels uncomfortable), but are these values still being refined?
And out of interest, how are they defined in the first place? Not by guessing, I reckon. I've always admired the system and been baffled over how people found it out.
I have made the part of your quote bold so that you know what I am answering here.
Putting IP on your MH weapon means that finishers will be able to proc IP, which is your most damaging poison.
A suggestion: all of the information you are asking for here is already contained in this Thread. The one exception is how EP came about. Go to shadowpanthers for that.
Last edited by Krollin : 01/13/09 at 11:30 AM.
Reason: Clarity on why finishers proccing IP is a good thing
I have a mutilate question that I have not been able to figure out via personal testing. Provided I have plenty of time on rupture and HFB, and I have just pooled 110 energy before an envenom, ruthlessness procs after the envenom and mutilate crits. I now have 4CP, ~60 energy, and 4 seconds left on my envenom buff. If I still do not need to refresh rupture, I have a couple choices.
a) I can mutilate a second time under the envenom buff, wasting combo points. This offers the additional benefit of a guaranteed 5pt rupture with no downtime.
b) I can pool energy for 5 seconds, use a second envenom to extend my envenom buff, and risk a slight downtime on rupture. Occasionally insufficient DP procs do not allow this option.
c) I can eviscerate, then mutilate again, both under the envenom buff, and risk a slight downtime on rupture.
It seems that with the double proc offhand bug, a or c would be the correct choice. In 3.0.8, c may very well be the best choice, due to eviscerate having an additional IP proc chance once we switch poisons. Can anyone clue me in to which of these produces the highest damage in 3.0 and 3.0.8? It would be best to assume two 1.5 speed weapons. Faster weapons would clearly inflate choice b slightly.
Pool energy for 3~ seconds and Envenom post-DP tick. Losing one second of Envenom application buff isn't too harmful, and that's definitely more damage than an Eviscerate. That's the one single situation where pooling can be bad, also.
Rupture downtime isn't a big deal, you really shouldn't see it that way.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
Well, I made up my mind that Mutilate should be my build of choice for pure flexibility, Unless I get some amazing combat weps, but here's my next round of questions.
I'm using Vulajin's spreadsheet (always with a grain of salt) and the only questions I have left at this point are;
How do you glyph Mutilate builds? Currently I am using Garrote, Slice and Dice and Rupture. Is there any benefit to glyphing eviscerate and using that for turn the tables, given the new state of poisons with the fixed mutilate bug?
Is there a simple answer for how stats scale in relation to one another, or is it all too complex? I've been using the spreadsheet to re gem me from full hit to full agi to full ap. Gemless I'm already at 277 hit, currently I'm gemmed up to 320, so my real concern is whether to go with Agility or AP, and moreover whether the amounts of agility acquired by endgame 25 man equipment, which I am quickly accumulating, will make stacking AP scale better or stacking AGI scale better. I really tend to think that stacking AGI will scale better because of the extra benefits to Crit and Dodge, but the spreadsheet always shows AP as the highest dps choice, and after all, we are involved in the dealing of damage.
For instance: When I put a +27 hit gem in my helm, and a +54 ap gem in my chest, I get 2073. When I reverse those gems I get 2080. Do stats scale differently gear to gear? Is that a true result or just a minor imperfection in the sheet?
Gemming bonus for gemming correct colors in sockets maybe?
Stats should scale identically regardless of itemslot (for rogues atleast)
Im a JC, so I'm using the prismatic gems in this case, which wouldn't affect the color bonuses or the bonuses by metagems.
However, what it did allow me to do was put prismatics in typicaly 'lower dps' color slots like yellow and blue, and load up my red gems with +32 AP, maintaining all my socket bonuses. That may have a lot to do with it.
Well, I made up my mind that Mutilate should be my build of choice for pure flexibility, Unless I get some amazing combat weps, but here's my next round of questions.
I'm using Vulajin's spreadsheet (always with a grain of salt) and the only questions I have left at this point are;
How do you glyph Mutilate builds? Currently I am using Garrote, Slice and Dice and Rupture. Is there any benefit to glyphing eviscerate and using that for turn the tables, given the new state of poisons with the fixed mutilate bug?
Is there a simple answer for how stats scale in relation to one another, or is it all too complex? I've been using the spreadsheet to re gem me from full hit to full agi to full ap. Gemless I'm already at 277 hit, currently I'm gemmed up to 320, so my real concern is whether to go with Agility or AP, and moreover whether the amounts of agility acquired by endgame 25 man equipment, which I am quickly accumulating, will make stacking AP scale better or stacking AGI scale better. I really tend to think that stacking AGI will scale better because of the extra benefits to Crit and Dodge, but the spreadsheet always shows AP as the highest dps choice, and after all, we are involved in the dealing of damage.
For instance: When I put a +27 hit gem in my helm, and a +54 ap gem in my chest, I get 2073. When I reverse those gems I get 2080. Do stats scale differently gear to gear? Is that a true result or just a minor imperfection in the sheet?
Snd and rupture are the only two useful glyphs. It really doesn't matter what the third one is, so I just leave one left over from pvp such as vigor.
As for gemming, you're already above the spell hit cap, so I wouldn't use hit gems at all. AP and AGI are very close, but agi edges ap out a little bit in endgame gear, so I just gem that so that I don't have to regem later. It also has benefits to your cycle that the spreadsheet doesn't fully model.
Snd and rupture are the only two useful glyphs. It really doesn't matter what the third one is, so I just leave one left over from pvp such as vigor.
As for gemming, you're already above the spell hit cap, so I wouldn't use hit gems at all. AP and AGI are very close, but agi edges ap out a little bit in endgame gear, so I just gem that so that I don't have to regem later. It also has benefits to your cycle that the spreadsheet doesn't fully model.
I figured this was the case, that the spreadsheet can't possibly account for all elements of Agility as well as it can for Attack Power. The only real stark difference is that as a JC, I have access to +54 AP gems which it seems to me would give me more bang for my buck than +27 AGI
EDIT: I would like to hear from others regarding the value of +54 AP vs +27 AGI in 'low dps' color sockets. Is there a point at which you 'cap' attack power or agility and begin to see diminishing returns a la Hit rating, or does it just stack to infinity?
I figured this was the case, that the spreadsheet can't possibly account for all elements of Agility as well as it can for Attack Power. The only real stark difference is that as a JC, I have access to +54 AP gems which it seems to me would give me more bang for my buck than +27 AGI
EDIT: I would like to hear from others regarding the value of +54 AP vs +27 AGI in 'low dps' color sockets. Is there a point at which you 'cap' attack power or agility and begin to see diminishing returns a la Hit rating, or does it just stack to infinity?
The sheet definitely does model the extra benefits of Agility, that being more crit. The additional crit from agility scales with your AP. At the current state of gear we are seeing Agi and AP flip flopping back and forth for best stat. I would say gem Agi if you only raid heroics and have close to full raid buffs. If you run 10 mans, or are lacking significant buffs/debuffs in your heroics, AP is probably the better choice.
The only possible cap for Agility is a soft crit cap on your white attacks, but that amount of crit is unreachable without gimmick buffs.
The sheet definitely does model the extra benefits of Agility, that being more crit.
Yeah just before I read this i noticed my crit is vastly understated on the sheet vs real in-game stats. I like your advice about Non-buffed heroics vs 25 man dps. I think the real question i need to ask myself is which dps is more important to me, and I think given the ease of most 5 mans I will go exclusively to AGI so that when I am called upon to fill in for a 25 man, at least I can impress where it counts.
Thanks all for your help, I will return with more long winded questions at a later date.
The sheet definitely does model the extra benefits of Agility, that being more crit. The additional crit from agility scales with your AP. At the current state of gear we are seeing Agi and AP flip flopping back and forth for best stat. I would say gem Agi if you only raid heroics and have close to full raid buffs. If you run 10 mans, or are lacking significant buffs/debuffs in your heroics, AP is probably the better choice.
The only possible cap for Agility is a soft crit cap on your white attacks, but that amount of crit is unreachable without gimmick buffs.
Although I can't be sure what he was referring to, one could assume that the "extra benefits of Agility" that aren't modeled in the sheet could be the increase in stats such as armor and dodge. Although as a theorycrafting community concerned with min/maxing PvE dps to the nth degree these aren't even worth mentioning in most cases, in the current debate between gemming Agi vs AP, the effective dps difference is so small (well within reasonable expected margins of error) that these benefits may potentially come in to play. As Aldriana posted somewhat recently, in a raid if the extra dodge from gemming agility even leads to a single dodged boss attack that would have otherwise killed us, that alone will lead to a significant increase in our overall raid dps and damage contribution.
DPS benefits that I assume are not properly moddeled are cyclestability issues for mutilate through more combopoints for mutilates. On the other hand the energygain from crits would be more stable with lower crit I presume.
Obviously it shouldn't be used in a rotation so...when do I use it? Just when there is AOE to do?
Thanks
I hope that was a joke in one of those "sarcasm doesn't always translate on the internet" kinda ways.
Just in case it wasn't, think about talents in general for a second (especially a 51 point talent), and long cooldowns in general. They are all intended to be good (hence the cost that deep in the combat tree) and generally should be used every time they are off cooldown sittuation permitting.
Use the search function for more info on Kspree but some general tips are:
1.) use it when you are at low energy so that you do not cap out as you regen energy during its duration,
2.) it is most powerful when you can use it on a single target,
3.) when combined with Blade Flurry it can become a useful multi-target dps tool,
4.) due to the way it "teleports" you to the target do not use it on certain bosses where the resulting positioning is bad (for ex. Thaddius - charges) and use care/common sense on others such as mobs with tailswipe or cleave, etc,
5.) take advantage of its "teleport" to get in range of a mob quickly when running back or to avoid certain unfavorable sittuations (ex. escape vortex on Malygos).
It's a common sense thing. There are times when KSp is a BAD thing. I practiced with it extensively before I dropped one in an instance/raid. Unless there are problematic adds, I haven't found it very useful in a single target encounter outside of perhaps using it to help me pool energy.
I have found it to perform very satisfactorily with an Envenom up on my primary target as well, again, situationally.
Additional info: IF your tank/healer can take it, it's a really great for bringing strays back to the kill box when combined with TotT.
Anyone have a pointer to the mechanics of Focused attacks. I spent some time on live and on ptr, with fan of knives, and cold blood fan of knives. I dont get energy back every time I crit. Id guess, there is a cooldown per target or something, Im not sure. Before I research it, is there a known mechanic writeup I can peruse?
Anyone have a pointer to the mechanics of Focused attacks. I spent some time on live and on ptr, with fan of knives, and cold blood fan of knives. I dont get energy back every time I crit. Id guess, there is a cooldown per target or something, Im not sure. Before I research it, is there a known mechanic writeup I can peruse?
It doesn't give energy back on "offhand" crits; I've got a post in the bug report forum about this so they can check on it's behavior.
Edit to say that I'm guessing it's intended for Combat Potency but should not be in place for Focused Attacks and to give a reference. http://elitistjerks.com/1045020-post1040.html
Last edited by Tinwhisker : 01/13/09 at 11:48 PM.
Reason: Reference
I'm getting results from the spreadsheet that seem to be the opposite of what I would expect. When I plug in all of my gear which is almost all badge/heroic/faction/nax10/sarth10 it's telling me that 5 mace/3 swords is better than 5 mace/4 close quarters or even 5 close quarters using fist/dagger. I didn't think that going mace/sword was even slightly efficient yet no matter what items I drop in there that I have/can obtain it's telling me to go that way.
I would have expected that a pure fist/dagger would be on top, or mace/dagger possibly. But mace/sword????
Also, if I'm going to stay 5mace/3sword is there any talent that can be reduced in order to get more points in sword for better overall dps? I keeping reading that 5/4 is the way to spec but that only seems to work when one of your weapons is a dagger/fist because of its location on the tree. I did try bumping swords up 1 point and dropping each of the other talents by 1 but for some reason Blade Twisting and Surprise Attacks don't seem to change the DPS when I alter them so I don't even know if it's worth doing?
Also, everyone seems to say that the paper cutter is the best OH over almost every purple but the spreadsheet is telling me almost everything else I have is way better? I keep swapping weapons around and the papercutter is always dropping my dps compared to the other things I have.
Another rogue in our guild got [Crimson Steel] last night but even with that when comboed with one of those daggers it's still worse, and it's a wash if I combo it with the [Avool's Sword of Jin]
Is this breaking down for me because the [Avool's Sword of Jin] is just SO much better than everything else in the OH that the normal rules no longer apply? Or does the spreadsheet not know that the sword is only in my offhand and is it perhaps calculating the procs as if I had swords in both hands? Just trying to see if this is accurate or because this spec is so goofy the spreadsheet isn't handling it properly.
Weapon speed is not as much of a factor for combat as it it for Mutilate, because less of your damage is poison damage (lack of poison talents, fewer Envenoms so the buff is up less). That presumably explains why [Omen of Ruin] comes in above [Librarian's Paper Cutter].
Next, if you compare [Omen of Ruin] and [Avool's Sword of Jin] as offhands, we see that they're equivalent speeds, so WP application is not a factor. However, the sword spends its itemisation points slightly better, and sword spec is better than other specialisations when considering the offhand slot. I'm slightly surprised that's sufficient to overcome the effect of the extra talent points you need to use for dual specialisation, but only slightly.
Finally, comparing the mainhands, [Greed] has a higher damage range and fist specialisation is better than mace specialisation, so I'd expect it to come out ahead. However, the expertise on the [Titansteel Bonecrusher] is important at lower gear levels with little expertise on your other gear, and may make the difference, although once again that would be surprising in a combat spec with Weapon Expertise.
What is with the hype with haste? Faster daggers provide more opportunity for poisons, which I understand but in most cases you fall below the 1.0 speed cap and at times with 1.3 speed daggers down to .64 speed in raids. That is a lot of waste. Why wouldn't people use slower dagger in a raid format rather than a fast dagger? Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I'm looking for a simple answer.
01/13/09, 10:52 AM
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