Like nuoHep already pointed out, there is no mythical 1.0 speed cap. It's just a rumor that has been spreading around the Blizzard official forums endlessly.

But, even ignoring that point: what "hype" are you referring to? Haste is not a particularly good stat when compared to its alternatives. You won't find much "hype" about haste here.

I would suggest reading a large portion of this thread, and reading the rogue pve dps compendium, even though it hasnt been updated, because I think you have some current misconceptions on rogue mechanics. This is the place for questions, but I am guessing you need some in depth mechanic backgrounds. No offense intended.

Simply put haste means more white attacks which for Combat with Combat Potency means more energy from the OH, for Mutilate means more energy from Focussed Attacks and for Rogues in general more poison procs.

However I cannot think of any reason why you would want to try and stack haste at the expense of any other stat simply because haste is so plentiful it is rather silly.

I am not sure I understand the point about falling below the 1.0 speed cap though, there is no evidence to suggest that weapon speeds below 1.0 are pointless. Just to be clear, haste does not effect our GCD like it does casters. White dmg attacks can be reduced below 1.0 although diminishing returns means getting to 0 would be impossible.
All this is moot though, you never have to worry about having enough haste.

Hey all,

Ive been toying with the spreadsheet and I am just trying to wrap my head around the math and logic behind it. While I would like to follow the spreadsheet blindly I was hoping to obtain some logical reasons as to why two particular changes I have entered have increased my overall DPS.

Firstly, I am a mutilate rogue and have been using Dual Librarian Cutters with DP MH and IP OH. Swapping the poisons (DP OH and IP MH) yields a dps increase that I cannot account for. Also, I had considered getting a Titansteel Shanker for a MH upgrade, however the spreadsheet indicated a drop in DPS which I am not surprised given the AEP valuation on various gear spreadsheets, however I was surprised to find a DPS increased when placed in the OH.

Any insight to these two matters would be greatly appreciated.

The newest sheet includes the removal of a Blizzard bug for offhand poison application; but that's besides the point.

Instant Poison is your strongest poison as Mutilate;
putting Instant Poison on your faster dagger will increase it's DPS over putting it on your slower dagger;
finishers have a chance to proc your mainhand poison.

Taken together, that means that Instant Poison (and thus your faster dagger) should go in the mainhand. That's all assuming that your daggers are about equal in ilevel. Some daggers are better optimized for such a system and thus will perform above their expected level.

Edit to say that this is relevant when 3.0.8 hits; until then you want to use the older spreadsheet and do the opposite.

If you are using the 0.4.4 version of the spreadsheet, it has been updated for 3.08, which fixed the additional proc on OH IP.

For 3.08, the preferred setup is faster dagger MH with IP, fast dagger OH with DP. Until 3.08 is released, your previous setup is correct (MH fast DP, OH faster IP).

My guess (note: *guess*) about Titansteel Shanker is that with the reduced focus on having a very fast OH, the ~ 100 AP increase and the white dps increase make up for the .3 second slower time. I wouldn't expect it to be a huge dps increase though...something in the range of .25%-.5%?

EDIT: D'oh, beaten to the punch.

You're thinking about this all wrong. As mentioned previously, there is no speed cap so going below 1.00 will not be a waste. On top of that, you are probably thinking about that as your weapon speed drops, say for example in .1 increments, it takes more haste for the next .1 increment. That's true, but if you do the math on that over the course of a few minutes, you'll see that 10% haste, to pick a random value, is exactly that many more attacks. Your actual weapon speed won't have as large of a drop because 10% of 1 is a smaller number than 10% of 2, but the benefit is the same.

To put it another way, the relationship between attack speed and overall damage is NOT linear. As attack speed approaches zero, DPS approaches infinity.
This may create the misconception that haste rating is actually better at low attack speeds, but it's also important to note that the relationship between haste rating and attack speed (the actual number, not the percentage) is not linear either. As haste rating increases, the rate of change in attack speed decreases.

As far as I know, the relationship between haste RATING and DPS (the one we really care about) is roughly linear. At the very least, it is very convenient to model it as linear over small intervals, which is generally how we go about comparing gear (nobody cares whether 1000 haste is better than 1000 crit because it's a choice we never have to make).

The relationship between haste rating and DPS is linear as long as all other stats are constant. However, increasing your haste rating increases the value of all other stats.

Hey I just leveled my rogue to 80 as my alt, and am currently becoming acustomed to the mutilate PvE dps spec.

I was wondering if someone could get a legit say in prioritizing the rotation. I've read on the forums previously on the rotation, but say I'm stuck in a situtation where I have 5 deadly ticks and 5 combo points, slice and dice and rupture have worn off. What moves prioritize over others?


Thanks in advance.

Your rotation priority should be Hunger for Blood > Slice and Dice > Rupture.


This link in under 5 minutes will provide a great base of information for the rogue class in a pve setting.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

Slice and Dice should have never worn off. Reapply Slice and Dice and next time use Envenom to refresh it before it falls off again.

Go back to http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/ and read the first post very carefully; you've obviously missed a few very important things.

I have a few question's of my own. I play as hfb and find myself in a dilemma as well, concerning envenom and dp applications. Often I have 4 combo points ready and less than 4 deadly poison applications with plenty of time to spare on rupture, s&d and hfb, but my energy bar is close to filling.

1) Is it sub-optimal but acceptable to envenom with less than 4 DP's and do the spreadsheets account for this?

2) If I added more hit would this increase my deadly poison application rate allowing for more regular bigger envenoms?

In that situation I usually find myself asking a few more questions before that, such as "Is my TotT -> Focus ready?" and "Are there more than 2 mobs within 8 yards for a nice FoK bomb?" If both of those are on cooldown as well I'll make sure the Envenom buff from my last Envenom is over and Envenom again.

Adding more hit will not increase DP application past the spell hit cap.

This is my first post here, and I searched every single page of this thread of ran answer to this question before posting.

I can't get the Roguecraft spreadsheet to work on my Mac. The spreadsheet loads in Excel, but if I even make one change to the spreadsheet, I have to forcequit because the program has messed up. In addition, when I open the spreadsheet, a bunch of error notices pop up saying that the workbook contains defined names that conflict with cell references, and that it can also not calculate a formula. I am an Excel noob, so if anyone has any bright ideas, please let me know. I'm using Excel 2008, and no, I don't have a Windows computer.

There was a discussion of this a few pages back. Basically, it's a bug in release versions of Excel for Mac that has since been patched. Run the updater - you may need to do so 2 or 3 times to get fully up to date but that should resolve the issue. It did for me

Im sure this has been asked but I cant find the answer. I do not understand why according to the spreadsheet, equipping Greed in the mainhand provides more DPS than equipping Anarchy in the main hand, when Anarchy has more DPS. Greed speed is 2.6 where Anarchy is 1.8, it seems backwards to me that Greed is better.

This may have been asked already. I am a 15/51/5 rogue, and my DPS seems to tank in most 5-man heroics (getting about 1400-1600), but in 10-25 man raids, I get around 1.8-2.3k DPS. I was wondering if someone could provide answers because as it is, I barely beat tanks in 5-mans.

Also, I was wondering if I could inquire on the validity of combat in raid DPS. I can beat a few Mutilate rogues in my guild (ones that are pretty geared, there is only one other that can beat me), and I know the spec is very gear dependent, but I still seem to get about 9th on average in a 25 man and 4th on average in a 10 man.

The World of Warcraft Armory

^^That is my armory page if you could use it to help answer my questions. Any help, other than the frequent "GO MUTILATE" I hear from basically every other rogue, is greatly appreciated, because I KNOW that combat is viable, I just don't know how to MAKE it viable, if that makes sense...

Your biggest enemy to dps in 5 mans is a lack of buffs / debuffs, Especially if your missing some of the big ones like Battle Shout / BoM or debuffs like Sunder Armour. What I find however is that DPS is not as crucial in a Heroic as long as the group suceeds.

Hmm. I would look to your rotations and your gear. Looking at your gear you seem to make some odd choices (granted it is all based around what is available, which may not make them that odd). Rotations are a little odd now compared to the old Combat days.
From my own experience a good Mutilate rogue can usually beat a good Combat rogue even with the Combat rogue being slightly better geared (this is even on Undead mobs so Murder was not a factor; with Murder it was quite out of proportion, the changes to the poison application in Mut this may change /shrug)
Rotations can be difficult right now especially with proc effects that can change your AP, these throw off Rupture applications.

You're comparing a fist weapon to a dagger. Are you trying to mutilate with that fist in the spreadsheet?

What are some decent numbers to expect from above average rogues with combat and mutilate spec's currently? Assuming mostly T7.5, proven spec, no ridiculous buffs etc.

One of my rogues mentioned some WWS parse of a rogue doing 6k or 6.5k DPS on patchwerk with mutilate, no hysteria supposedly. That seems fairly unrealistic.

Reason I ask is cause I tried mutilate again the other day for our weekly raid and I was fairly disappointed with my personal results. Obviously lost to all the BM hunters and our dual wield DK. Also lost on quite a few fights to our warlock and enh shaman who are very good to be fair. Also lost a few to our fury warrior (sigh can't believe how much they're getting buffed). I got so frustrated with it I just went back to combat which I can at least match our best DPSers with (except aforementioned BM+dual wield dks).

Just trying to sound off against other rogues, see how they're stacking up in their raids. I'm concerned about next patch and all the changes going in :/