This will be a cross-post in most of the class-specific subforums, sorry if it's wrong place to ask, but didn't find better.
I'm planning to organize pugs for 25-man raids (OS, VoA and possibly Nax) on regular basis and I would like to know stats of your friendly next door Rogue that can be useful in a raid. I don't want to be elitist, so let's say the person has already started doing heroics and some 10-man raids, but doesn't have the best gear he can get from it per slot. What stats should I expect from such Rogue?
Just because a player has X amount of Y stat doesn't mean they're a decent player, it just means they have X amount of Y stat. Sure looking at an armory or the character's gear/spec can tell you stuff about them but when it comes down to it, you don't know just how well a player will do until they're in combat. When you PUG stuff, you're rolling the dice on the quality of people you get, so a person in blues that knows their class could be very competitive to someone who has epics and has a less than clear view on a class.
I really think there was an older thread in the Public Discussion sub forum a while back(I want to say it was from Summer 08) that discussed leading raids and such, it might be easier to try digging that up than reinventing the PUG raid.
This will be a cross-post in most of the class-specific subforums, sorry if it's wrong place to ask, but didn't find better.
I'm planning to organize pugs for 25-man raids (OS, VoA and possibly Nax) on regular basis and I would like to know stats of your friendly next door Rogue that can be useful in a raid. I don't want to be elitist, so let's say the person has already started doing heroics and some 10-man raids, but doesn't have the best gear he can get from it per slot. What stats should I expect from such Rogue?
You shouldn't be judging any player by the stats their 'toons have, skill and the ability to work together with the rest of the raid are far more important.
Having said that, skill can only go so far to make up for a lack of gear, someone in greens/blues is going to have to work very hard to keep up with someone whose 'toon is decked in purples.
You will only be able to tell if a player fits into your plans by seeing them in action.
You shouldn't be judging any player by the stats their 'toons have, skill and the ability to work together with the rest of the raid are far more important.
Having said that, skill can only go so far to make up for a lack of gear, someone in greens/blues is going to have to work very hard to keep up with someone whose 'toon is decked in purples.
You will only be able to tell if a player fits into your plans by seeing them in action.
All of the above is true. What advice I can give you - this I did in TBC, when I PUG'd T4-5 content - just try them. Also judging them by their DPS is bad. I raided as mutilate pre-TBC - back when it wasn't considered an optimal raid spec - and pretty succesfull, if I may say so myself. My DPS was always low - 900ish vs. 1,4K on warlocks - but I still managed to keep up with their damage and often even overtake them. Judge people by the way they play, their damage, their flexibility, the amount of times they screw up/save the day, and their sociability. That's how my raids in the end turned out as both good laughs as well as succes, which, in my opinion, couldn't be better.
I noticed on most of the spread sheets they don't list Figurine - Emerald Boar as an option, yet on shadow panthers site he lists it as a decent option. The spread sheets list Figurine - Shadowsong Panther as the only JC trinket of any worth, which JC trinket is the best? Also wouldn't Figurine - Twilight Serpent be of good worth if your below the hit cap?
I noticed on most of the spread sheets they don't list Figurine - Emerald Boar as an option, yet on shadow panthers site he lists it as a decent option. The spread sheets list Figurine - Shadowsong Panther as the only JC trinket of any worth, which JC trinket is the best? Also wouldn't Figurine - Twilight Serpent be of good worth if your below the hit cap?
[Figurine - Emerald Boar] is not very good unless you are just hitting 80 or something. There are too many easy to obtain trinkets that are considerably better. It's just not worth spending anyone's time to properly model the "on use" effect of that trinket. The reason [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] is modeled is because it was just never removed from when that trinket was actually decent at level 70; plus, it's considerably easier to model since it works just like many other trinkets, whereas the Emerald Boar is unique.
My rogue just reached 80. Ive put all my gear in the spread sheet and I have read the pocket book thread. I've noticed that with the spreadsheet it wants me to keep 4e and 4r. Now the part I'm wondering if i am doing something wrong is this. Sometimes because of i do not always get a combo point after a finisher. Therefor sometimes my mutilate will leave me at 3 combo points if it crits.
The question is, do I just do either rupture or evenom with 3 combo points? Do I mut again to 5 and then do my finisher? Do I shiv to make it four combo points? I would like to hear from some rogues who raid as mut to chime in on this. Another question i had; whats the best way to start out? Right now i am doing garrote, snd, then try to get 4 point rupture and start building up again to do 4 point evenom to refresh slice and dice. Sometimes this can be tricky and not work right and i find it risky because sometimes i lose SnD. Any tips on that?
My rogue just reached 80. Ive put all my gear in the spread sheet and I have read the pocket book thread. I've noticed that with the spreadsheet it wants me to keep 4e and 4r. Now the part I'm wondering if i am doing something wrong is this. Sometimes because of i do not always get a combo point after a finisher. Therefor sometimes my mutilate will leave me at 3 combo points if it crits.
The question is, do I just do either rupture or evenom with 3 combo points? Do I mut again to 5 and then do my finisher? Do I shiv to make it four combo points? I would like to hear from some rogues who raid as mut to chime in on this. Another question i had; whats the best way to start out? Right now i am doing garrote, snd, then try to get 4 point rupture and start building up again to do 4 point evenom to refresh slice and dice. Sometimes this can be tricky and not work right and i find it risky because sometimes i lose SnD. Any tips on that?
No shiv. The notation means 4 or more. So yea, at 3 combo points, mutilate again. And that's only if, HfB and SnD timers are good. They are a bigger priority then this "cycle". So your thoughts should be, keep HfB up, keep SnD up. Then if you have times left over, go with 4e/4r.
Another question, I am noticing different gem choices for rogues at end game level. I'm talking heroic raid geared. Some rogues such as yourself saedo are gemmed for expertise because they are low on it. Other rogues are gemmed for AP and other rogues are gemmed for AGI.
On the spreadsheet in end game gear, I am noticing AP is the highest for dps gain. Is this completely accurate with mutilate? I figured AGI would be best because it scales with kings, thus also giving you more crit for more combo points. Please enlighten me on this.
Another question, I am noticing different gem choices for rogues at end game level. I'm talking heroic raid geared. Some rogues such as yourself saedo are gemmed for expertise because they are low on it. Other rogues are gemmed for AP and other rogues are gemmed for AGI.
On the spreadsheet in end game gear, I am noticing AP is the highest for dps gain. Is this completely accurate with mutilate? I figured AGI would be best because it scales with kings, thus also giving you more crit for more combo points. Please enlighten me on this.
Poisons are another chunk of damage. It scales with AP. Agi does give poisons AP too, but none of the crit. AP also makes other attacks hit harder. This kind of balances it out, even on the spreadsheet, AP though may be ahead of agi, it probably only very slightly. So it becomes a bit of a personal preference to either squeeze out that last bit of spreadsheet calculated dps, or forgo it for the other benefits agi brings.
Expertise is considered most valuable for mutilate til cap though. It brings that cycle stability since the whole SnD/CttC depends on it.
That depends on many factors: if the gear in question is best-in-slot, what gems you plan to use on your best-in-slot set and your expertise rounding. Basically, expertise is better than AP/Agility, but because of how the expertise conversion works (1 expertise = 8.1975 expertise rating, 16 expertise rating = 1.95), 16 expertise gems aren't always better than 16 agility or 32 Attack Power. AP versus Agility is different thing - they're almost equal and it depends on your gear; at best-in-slot, Agility is supposedly very slightly ahead of AP.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
Worth noting that while agility may carry other benefits, it's value is dependent on you getting Kings. If you don't get Kings, AP is simply better. That's probably a reasonable assumption to make if all you do are 25-mans, but I mainly do 10-mans with a few 25's, so I choose to go with AP gems. They may be slightly worse in those cases where I do get kings, but they are way better when I don't get it.
To all the people that are getting higher dps values from the roguecraft spreadsheet using a 15/51/5 spec (as opposed to 7/51/13), make sure you're changing not just your spec, but your rotation as well.
When speccing 15/51/5, you're probably using a xs/yr/ze rotation (which, according to the spreadsheet, you probably should). But since 7/51/13 is taking advantage of several talents that increase rupture damage, try out a 3-5s/5r rotation; this will increase your rupture uptime, getting the most out of the spec.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say 7/51/13 is always the better spec, I just haven't encountered any gear/buff level that proved otherwise, so I'm wondering if this is just different gear/buffs or people forgetting to change some settings.
as far as i know they'll fix the offhand poison double procc.... so muti rogues have to switch the daggers again - the faster one into the mainhand....
I know that two "webbed death" are best in slot for that purpuse.... but I've got only one ;o(
I can choose between:
-webbed death
-murder
-sinister revenge
my plan for 3.0.8 is to switch "webbed death" into the mainhand and murder to the offhand.... is that the best choice?
from the pocketguide I got these numbers here:
for mutilate:
MH DPS 4.1
OH DPS 3.1
so the white dps improve between "sinister revenge" and "murder" isn't that strong in the offhand...
curious is in my option the following statement in the pocketguide - maybe I don't get it right
"For weapon speeds, each .1 increase in MH speed is around 35 EP and each .1 increase of OH speed
is around 75 EP."
I thought faster weapons do better dps... why is .1 increase a ep-boost??
but I don't know under what circumstances these numbers are generated.... I think these are "old" numbers pre 3.0.8 so with the "faster" offhand applied with instant poision... that would be differend if deadly is applied...
many questions - maybe someone of you guys can solve the problem!
thx a lot
ps. sorry for my poor english - I'm not a native speaker but i hope you can understand me ;o)
curious is in my option the following statement in the pocketguide - maybe I don't get it right
"For weapon speeds, each .1 increase in MH speed is around 35 EP and each .1 increase of OH speed
is around 75 EP."
I thought faster weapons do better dps... why is .1 increase a ep-boost??
The pocket guide isn't talking about the speed number you see displayed on the weapon. It just means increased speed (or in other words: faster). A .1 increase in speed means (in this case) a .1 lower value on the weapon tooltip (because WoW shows the time between attacks, not an actual speed number.
As for the weapon choices, try plugging them into one of the available spreadsheets.
The pocket guide isn't talking about the speed number you see displayed on the weapon. It just means increased speed (or in other words: faster). A .1 increase in speed means (in this case) a .1 lower value on the weapon tooltip (because WoW shows the time between attacks, not an actual speed number.
As for the weapon choices, try plugging them into one of the available spreadsheets.
oh - yes - you are right.... that one got twisted somewhere in my tired head... maybe I should sleep a bit ;o)
as for the spreadsheet - I allready checked that... Call me crazy or a nap - I still got that feeling that these numbers don't match the truth when 3.0.8 hits live! So I wanted to calc it myself ;o)
That leads to annother question on this topic =)
"For weapon speeds, each .1 increase in MH speed is around 35 EP and each .1 increase of OH speed
is around 75 EP."
-> 40 EP difference between mh/oh - is that because the pocketguide assumes instant posion on the oh? If that's the case...... you know what I mean... =)
I'm wondering why Agi is so high rated at the Pocket Guide. If you seperate Agi into the Effects Agi has for DPS and multiply them with their EP Weights the result is much lower than the expected one if you rate AGI with 2.0 EP.
From the Pocket Guide I get the following EP Weights:
AGI 2.0
AP 1.0
Crit 1.6
So 100 Agi give you 100 AP and 1.2% Crit = 16,8 % Crit Rating. Correct so far? (I get these ratings from the spreadsheet)
Ok 16,8 Crit Rating is equal to 26,88 EP 100 AP is equal to 100 EP.
Because Blessing of kings gave you 10% more Stats these EP weights also get 10% extra.
126.88 * 1.1 = 139.56
So the result is, 139.56 EP.
But 100 Agi must have 200 EP. So which part of DPS boost of Agi I did not include in my calculation.
I am sorry for my english. I'm not a native speaker and not really used to write in english. I hope you can understand my question.
16.8 crit rating hasn't given 1.2% crit since level 60.
The calculation you're trying to do is as follows: 100 agility gives 1.2% crit, which is the equivalent of 1.2 * 45.9 = 55.1 crit rating, which is worth 55.1 * 1.6 = 88.2 EP. Thus, 100 agility without kings is worth 188 AP, so 100 agility with kings is worth 188 * 1.1 = 207 EP, so Agi is almost 2.1 per point.
So why 2.0 instead of 2.1? Because the above calculation is inaccurate in that crit rating also effects poisons, while agility does not. By running the numbers correctly and in far more detail than is easily here reproduced, one finds that the 2.0 number is fairly accurate for most rogues.
as far as i know they'll fix the offhand poison double procc.... so muti rogues have to switch the daggers again - the faster one into the mainhand....
I know that two "webbed death" are best in slot for that purpuse.... but I've got only one ;o(
The Roguecraft spreadsheet (as of version 0.4.4) doesn't include this double proc, and I still find that I max out with Sinister Revenge MH, Webbed Death Offhand.
Faster weapons are indeed better all things being equal, but in this case Sinister Revenge does 10% more base DPS than Webbed Death.
The Roguecraft spreadsheet (as of version 0.4.4) doesn't include this double proc, and I still find that I max out with Sinister Revenge MH, Webbed Death Offhand.
Faster weapons are indeed better all things being equal, but in this case Sinister Revenge does 10% more base DPS than Webbed Death.
The Roguecraft spreadsheet (as of version 0.4.4) doesn't include this double proc, and I still find that I max out with Sinister Revenge MH, Webbed Death Offhand.
Faster weapons are indeed better all things being equal, but in this case Sinister Revenge does 10% more base DPS than Webbed Death.
With the 0.4.4 Roguecraft Spreadsheet you should use your slower weapon on the OH - namely Webbed Death MH / Sinister Revenge OH or Webbed Death MH / Webbed Death OH. The difference is fairly minimal at best.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
With the 0.4.4 Roguecraft Spreadsheet you should use your slower weapon on the OH - namely Webbed Death MH / Sinister Revenge OH or Webbed Death MH / Webbed Death OH. The difference is fairly minimal at best.
My spreadsheet does disagree, but the difference in indeed minimal (less than 1%) so it could be a gear difference. I keep my spreadsheet saved to what I own rather than top items in each slot.
What is clear however is that Sinister Revenge and Webbed Death are the best to run with. They are better than 2 Webbed Death or 2 Sinister Revenge.
01/18/09, 7:46 AM
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