gedo

Yes none should care about trash dps... but there are many boss fights with adds that matters (thinking Gluth fight for example).
With FoK CD gone.... when shall I switch to FoK spam? 2 mobs in range or 3? 4?
Is it worth starting SnD before FoK spam?
When does straight FoK spam become better than Something+SnD+BF+Kspree+FoK? 3 mobs? 4? 5?

 

Ashere

With clearing trash taking as much time as killing bosses and people still regularly dying on trash (probably as much as on boss fights if we exclude full wipes), yes trash fights do matter. It's just not the strongest point of rogues, but those fights do matter. As rogues, we don't look at them for our DPS numbers, since we know it's abysmal. For hunters and mages and the likes it's another story.

 

Duck2h

I think the upgrade in FoK was just to encourage more people to use it.

 

Rhysel

Back again.

From my understanding, the rogue specs have pretty well leveled out, everything having it's place. Correct me if I'm totally off base, please. The only advice I'm not interested in is 'play however you want', I enjoy all the specs and am only interested in keeping a straight course towards an endgame dps build.

Combat is great for leveling or questing solo due to improved survival talents such as sprint and evasion, and stable, consistent dps. It's good for 5-mans, and 10-mans weak on raid buffs, as it has a solid spec that does not rely on having a specific class to buff you in place of a talent. (i.e. DK's crit buff vs Turn the Tables)

Mutilate is good for strong 10-mans, if your geared appropriately, and can handle the complexity of the combat cycle, and is great for 25 mans with plentiful buffs, but can be inefficient given the ever-changing makeup of any 25 man raid (particularly a full or partial pug). I might spec murder for 25 man sarth and find myself needing to respec for Naxx25, only to then find out the DK can't come, and thus need to respec a third time to maximize my DPS.

Subtlety is useful for PVP, and can be competitive for well-geared and carefully thought out 25 mans, but lacks versatility along the lines of maximizing dps.

These blanket statements can't possibly apply to every situation, but if you all can give me some wiggle room, would the above statements be generally considered to be true? Rogues do one thing and one thing only, DPS. I believe it is Blizzard's intention to make them viable in a multitude of situations, and it is my desire to come to a stronger understanding of how the different specs work out so that I can best serve my guild and server.

 

khayman68

I just wanted to confirm a strange activity, it may be a fluke but I noticed after the 3.0.8 patch when I had a Rupture going on my target I was not able to Rupture again until the Rupture was nearly over.

 

Arakas

One other item to check is whether you had any temporary buffs applied when you popped your first rupture. If your AP was modified to be higher (Mirror of Truth, Nobles Deck, Mongoose, Berserk, etc). then you cannot apply another rupture for less incremental damage. You'll just get the 'A more powerful spell is already in effect.' notification.

 

Duck2h

What you probably encountered was that during your previous rupture, you had higher total AP (from a mongoose proc, buffs, etc) than the next time you tried to rupture. Rupture's damage scales with AP, so it wont allow you to replenish it with a lower damage "2nd" rupture until the first is gone. Which i guess is a good implement on blizzard's behalf.

 

koaschten

And to make it clear, this is not a 3.0..8 change.

 

Duck2h

With so many Dk's out there i guess it's just Badluck not to have one in-raid, but i myself spec mutilate without "fleet footed" and instead have "murder". This is mainly due to having a DK always in my guild's raid.

 

Rhysel

Yeah I find in the 25 mans DK's are more common, but in my guild, for instance, we don't have anyone playing a DK as their main. All of our DK's are still undergeared barely-80 alts. I too have been speccing for murder a la the pocket guide, but in naxx the constant worry about wether my spec is optimal brought me to my post.

 

Duck2h

I'm currently putting points into murder, vigor and my "fleet footed" points im thinking into investing them into ruthlesness. I do find vigor+ glyph to be quiet usefull and i know it doesnt apply for everyone but i have one DK in every raid so fleet footed is useless for me. Quick recovery might be an option but considering all rogues should be above specials cap puts this talent below average.

 

Rhysel

I honestly don't see the real ap value of fleet footed given the ability to break most snares with CoS or Vanish, and the fact that as a rogue we are generally already arm deep in mob's posterior when the movement impediments strike. I would think the mut build would just ignore fleet footed and include vigor instead.

But im very new to theorycrafting or whatever, so I may be completely off base.

 

Lord Xar

Not sure if this intentional. But when I put "Accuracy" in my OH (on Librarian Paper Cutter), I get a 8dps increase over the mongoose enchant.

So, the spreadsheet shows that Mongoose/Accuracy is greater than Mongoose/Mongoose -- seem right?

of note: I am running a 244hit rating, and 35.5% unbuffed crit. (close quarter spec) - 15/51/5.

 

Pyriana

I have a...peculiarity I guess you'd call it...I didn't test before 3.0.8 but since, I was beating on a training dummy for a bit and noticed (no buffs/raid buffs etc except maybe an scorch or possibly imp scorch was up)

I was running with my standard gear (you can see in my armory) with Murder and IP in mh, and Twilight Mist and DP in OH...I did roughly 2k dps like this, which was about what I was doing pre 3.0.8...

Then I look at the breakdown for my damage, 15% ip 11% dp, 5% envenom...which I thought was kinda high for IP...

Then I thought, well if I dual IP and run evisc instead of envenom, it seems like I'd do better unless envenom can't beat 2% of my dmg (which sounds preposterous). So I busted out my Omen of Ruin, another 1.5 speed weapon, and replaced my twilight mist, (my omen has an inferior enchant, even) and put IP on it on my offhand...

Now it seemed to me like I was doing pretty good, there were no hunters attacking him, so that means my mut dmg was -50%...checking my damage breakdown puts my ip at 27% and I don't recall offhand what evisc was at...but the more interesting thing was that I actually did a full 200 dps more...

There were no buff changes between the two tests (on the dummy or on me), and I realize that they were a really small sample size (3 minutes each) but this seems kinda odd that I was able to do 200 more dps especially when mutilate was hitting 2/3rds it's normal amount...

So my question is (I haven't had a chance to try this in a raid yet...) and the spreadsheet doesn't reflect this at all...is it possible that this could be a dps boost? especially if there are always going to be poisons on the target (hunters, rogues) to make your mut do full damage? I don't think the spreadsheet currently allows you to mutilate for full damage unless you yourself have a poison that stacks on the mob...

Sorry for the long post...quick version: is it possible 2 1.5 speed weapons with ip would beat a 1.5 with ip and a 1.8 with dp? (granted one of the 1.5 speed weapons is 143 dps...)

Doing it from behind since 1999.

 

Duck2h

Well that accounts from the double IP your using+ faster weapons.

If your using two 1.5 speeed weapons with IP/DP you'll beat the 1.5 and 1.8 speed. I'm assuming here.

 

Pyriana

The real issue, or the meat of my question is...why was double ip and 1.5 speed weapons [Murder][Omen of Ruin](even with mutilate penalty) beating [Murder] + IP mh and [Twilight Mist] + dp off by 200 dps non raid buffed, will this be the case with raid buffs as well? the spreadsheet says no but I don't believe it accounts for poison already being on the mob, either...

Doing it from behind since 1999.

 

spacewiz

I have a question regarding lvl 80 training dummys. I'm your standard 51/13/7 mut build and Vulajin's spreadsheet says i should be doing 4k+ dps on all bosses. I have only recently speced mut as i happened to be the only one that could use/want some 25m dagger. I know they are far from the ideal 2x webbed death/paper cutter (and that they are unenchanted). I'm still learning the fine points of Xe/Yr (CttC) but i've got the basics down. I don't understand why I cant go past 2.5k dps on a lvl 80 dummy so I wondering what other people of similar gear are seeing for dps on training dummys as I have yet to be able to do any 25m bosses.

Armory

 

Duck2h

My spreadsheet also states i should be doing around 4k dps, even after i toned down the buffs & flasks etc. I'm getting no where near those sort of figures, on a 10 man naxx i average 2.8-3.2k dps. I assume spreadsheet calculates a "perfect play" of a rogue hence it states at such a high dps? I'm not too sure either and more answers on this would be nice.

 

Turncoat

Patch 3.0.8

Mutilate: this ability will no longer give poisons on the off-hand weapon two chances to be triggered.

So i guess now its more preferable to use IP on main hand , DP on oh ?

I hope we wont lose much dmg.

 

MasterDinadan

For Mutilate spec, how much in terms of EP is 2-pc bonus of t7 worth?
The 4-pc bonus is not an option for me at this point, and I'm basically trying to decide whether I should use [Heroes' Bonescythe Pauldrons] or [Spaulders of Resumed Battle], given that the latter is about 24 EP better, but I lose the 2 piece bonus by changing.

 

Fonzey

Take the 2pc Bonus, you're looking at >90% uptime of Rupture on something like Patchwerk so the 15% damage increase is well worth it.

If you want to see real numbers instead of believing everything EP tells you, download and setup Vulajins spreadsheet - when faced with exactly the same choice myself, the setbonus came out miles ahead of a few stat increases.

 

ant1pathy

Does Crippling Poison hit/apply the "poisoned" status on raid bosses? If so, with dual Webbed Deaths, it would seem better to run 2x IP and Evis with 1 point in Deadly Brew in case there is no Hunter or other Rogue.

 

Rilias

Most bigger Raidmobs are immune to slow-effects and can thus not be debuffed with crippling Poison.

 

Krollin

While most if not all Raid mobs cannot be slowed by crippling poison it does not hold true that they cannot be debuffed by the poison without the cripping effect.
A lot of raid mobs are immune to Wound Poison's debuff effect but they are still debuffed by it and WP still does damage.

Speccing 1 point in Deadly Brew to use dual IP.

It does not make sense to use CP, either as your main poison or applied through Deadly Brew, because the first case would be a massive reduction to DPS where using DP makes more sense.

The second case, speccing 1 point in Deadly Brew, has 3 consequences.
1- You have to lose a Talent point from a Talent which almost certainly has a greater effect on your DPS so you are losing there
2- Deadly Brew with 1 point only gives a 50% chance to apply Cripping Poison per application of IP.
IP has a 30% chance of being applied per attack (with maxed Imp Poisons) so you have a 15% chance per attack of getting a CP application
Chances are the application will be resisted often enough for you to have downtime on it.
3- You will be forced to use Eviscerate to refresh SnD instead of Envenom

Even assuming that mobs can be debuffed by CP regardless of snare immunities I cannot see the above resulting in a net DPS gain.

Just to check this out I use Vulajin's Spreadsheet and changed the build to have 2 Imp Evis, 2/3 TtT and 1/2 Deadly Brew.
I switch to dual IP on weapons and adjusted the cycle to use Eviscerate instead of Envenom
Everything else I left as it was.
The net DPS lost was 8.36%.
Now I cannot say if the Spreadsheet models the effect of Deadly Brew or not. If not then the change to DPS will not be quite so severe as predicted by it. If it does model Deadly Brew then it clearly shows that doing the above is not a good idea.
Now here is a remarkable idea: why not use the spreadsheet(s) yourselves?

 

ant1pathy

This is the crux of my question, really.

What I'm trying to see is if dual IP is better dps than IP/DP with 2x 1.4 speed daggers, while maintaining the "poisoned" debuff solo.

From Murder, and then I would of course SS to determine where dropping another 1/2 points would be least missed.


CP has a 12s duration, and with 2x Webbed Death + SnD, that's a lot of chances for it to proc. With a SnD attack speed of 1.03 on each hand, there's a potential 23 attacks in 12s. I'd be pretty comfortable with that keeping it up if it can be applied.

Yes, which really isn't so bad. Mitigated by armor, but with a glyph to boost it's damage...

What weapons are you using, whats your hit rating, does the spreadsheet assume the poisoned status if DP isn't used? Kinda important questions, which is why I asked .


And I like quoteboxes, shut up >.>