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Old 12/19/08, 10:53 AM   #751
Pyriana
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Dragonblight
These are questions that the spreadsheet can answer better than we can.


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Old 12/19/08, 11:34 AM   #752
gedo
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Kilrogg
Loatheb question

I'm in a casual raid guild and we cleared 10man Naxx 3rd quarter last night. A question on Loatheb.
BTW, I'm 7/51/13 fist/sword mostly in Heroic/rep/badge purples with only a couple of drops from Nax10/Obsidian10.

Because of 50% crit buff, I switched from wound/deadly to wound/wound, and used Evis instead of Rupture.
Sometimes I could do 3-4 evis between SnD. Did I do it right?

I wasn't 100% sure if Evis (with no imp Evis, no Glyph, Warr MT so no need for EA) is indeed better than glyphed Rup with BSplatter + SBlade + T72pc + Trauma. Should I have replaced one of Evis by Rup? Or go to deadly and Env?

I think I was crit capped for white. Is it better to swap for some +hit gear (for example AC exalted boots instead of Faerlina's boots?).

I was trying to trick spreadsheet, but I don't know enough to modify cycles for this fight.

Last edited by gedo : 12/19/08 at 11:48 AM.

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Old 12/19/08, 11:48 AM   #753
Neto-
Bald Bull
 
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
Regarding the 50% crit buff, the only way to accurately answer that would be with a WWS log so we could properly compare the damage from an Eviscerate crit versus a Rupture. My anecdotal experience, though, would likely suggest to keep using Rupture.

As for white crit capped, you most likely were, so hit gear would be actually the same as crit except the conversion would be 32.77 for 1% crit (actually a hit, but works like a crit if crit capped) instead of 45.9 (would only apply to white attacks, though).

My napkin math says your Rupture should do 10000~ damage (assuming from my average Rupture tick and the fact that our gear is similar and you had Blood Spatter), which is probably more than your average Eviscerate (edit your post with a WWS log and I'll edit mine with the correct analysis).

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 12/19/08, 12:12 PM   #754
gedo
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Neto- View Post
Regarding the 50% crit buff, the only way to accurately answer that would be with a WWS log so we could properly compare the damage from an Eviscerate crit versus a Rupture. My anecdotal experience, though, would likely suggest to keep using Rupture.

As for white crit capped, you most likely were, so hit gear would be actually the same as crit except the conversion would be 32.77 for 1% crit (actually a hit, but works like a crit if crit capped) instead of 45.9 (would only apply to white attacks, though).

My napkin math says your Rupture should do 10000~ damage (assuming from my average Rupture tick and the fact that our gear is similar and you had Blood Spatter), which is probably more than your average Eviscerate (edit your post with a WWS log and I'll edit mine with the correct analysis).
Sorry but I didn't save log. Our guild used WWS in the past. But I don't know if anyone from yesterday have done it.

When crit capped for white:
- crit rating converts hit to crit for yellow/poison, but does nothing for white
- hit rating converts miss to hit+crit for yellow/poison (if below cap), and converts miss to crit for white
If I assume 30% damage is from white:
EP for crit rating should be lower (1.5 x 0.7 + 0.0 x 0.3 = 1.0?)
EP for hit rating should be higher (1.6 x 0.7 + 1.6 x 0.3 x 2.4 = 2.1?)
No?

Last edited by gedo : 12/19/08 at 12:19 PM.

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Old 12/19/08, 12:41 PM   #755
Riqi
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
The Venture Co
This is a somewhat long-ish question, but it may end up with simple answers.

I was comparing a WWS of my Patchwerk (10-man) performance last night to a 0.4.3 spreadsheet model of my gear and buffs I believe I should have experienced. From looking at the WWS stats, I was able to eliminate Faerie Fire since it was rarely applied to the boss. I need to look more closely, but the other buffs/debuffs appear to have been present.

The spreadsheet shows my maximum potential as Combat (15/51/5) to be about 2740 dps in this fight, while my actual dps for the kill was 2382. I have identified some mistakes and possible mistakes (staying too close to front of boss after KSpree and getting parries, delays between Rupture falling and being reapplied, and Deadly Poison dropping once), which should net me about 99 dps increase, putting my adjusted dps at 2481. This is still 259 dps below the spreadsheet.

Does the spreadsheet take into account target spell/poison resistances? He did resist some of the damage and would have accounted for another 15 dps.


Accounting for the adjustments, which assumes I can make Deadly Poison never drop, Rupture immediately when I need, and that there is 0% resistance, I'm seeing the following dps variances:

White Damage: 890 actual, 1006 expected (116 difference, 11.5%)
KSpree Damage: 115 actual, 139 expected (24 difference, 17%)
Sinister Strike Damage: 727 adjusted, 754 expected (27 difference, 3.6%)
Rupture Damage: 282 adjusted, 328 expected (46 difference, 14%)
Poison Damage: 425 adjusted, 458 expected (33 difference, 7.2%)
Garrote Damage: 15.6
Eviscerate Damage: 10.3

I was able to open with Garrote shortly after the tanks started smacking him, and I had enough energy and combo points in my rotation (3s5r) to Eviscerate once. When cooldowns were available, I used KSpree by itself, AR + BF once, and then BF by itself. SnD didn't drop.


Is the number of total hits too small to be concerned about these differences from the spreadsheet, as I may have experienced a dry period? What would be an appropriate sample size to have in order to say that the differences are not due to the RNG?

How much of an effect can latency have on actual dps vs spreadsheet dps? I am on the East Coast USA and play on a West Coast USA server, typical latency of 150-200 ms.

What else should I look for, in order to find either my mistakes or other unaccounted-for reasons for such a large variance from the expected values?

(Edit: I forgot Sinister Strike, though that seems to be fairly close in this fight)

Last edited by Riqi : 12/19/08 at 12:46 PM.

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Old 12/19/08, 2:52 PM   #756
Anarkid
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
First post on the forums so I hope this is a valid question. My maths isn't too hot so haven't been able to work this out.

At the moment I try to TotT one of the other rogues or melee throughout the fight to boost our dps. Now I've read that TotT adds a theoretical 3% dps to the target of it. Now given that Tricks costs 15 energy, is there any theoretical or realistic dps ratios between yourself and Tricks target upon which TotT is a dps loss as opposed the the damage you could gain from using the 15 energy for another move (eg SS or Muti).

I would think that this depends both on the average dps you personally gain from 15 energy and also the dps of your target which would benefit from the 3% buff, whichever is greater. I assume that there is a ratio between your dps and target's dps at which you would be better served using the 15 energy yourself but I am wondering if this is a ratio we are ever likely to see in a standard raid situation.

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Old 12/19/08, 3:08 PM   #757
Pyriana
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Dragonblight
I can't remember which thread it was but someone calculated the dps loss as 2% from the 15 energy from tricks, not counting focused attacks. as combat's energy regen is higher I would imagine that the loss is a little bit smaller even, however if you're boosting someone's dps by 3% that is at the bottom of the dps and you're at the top of the dps, it's likely not worth doing it on that person, it seems like it's very highly relative on your dps and your raid's dps. personally I've kinda given up trying to use it every cooldown and go with using it at critical points, low threat on a mob that needs to die fast (sarth+3 for example), during heroism, or if I know "my" rogue just popped their cooldowns.


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Old 12/19/08, 3:13 PM   #758
Neto-
Bald Bull
 
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
You're very unlikely to lose DPS by using Tricks on every cooldown. I mean, the 15 energy every 30s is shown as a 1.7% DPS loss for me, in my gear. Using Tricks every cooldown is, averaged, 20% uptime, or 3% increase in overall damage. So, I lose around 60 DPS to use it, so my target would need to do more than 2000 DPS for Tricks to be worth using, this is assuming I do 4000 DPS. Overall, it should always be worth using it on someone doing DPS at least equal or close to yours.

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 12/19/08, 3:47 PM   #759
Anarkid
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
perfect, thanks for the replies, that's just what i needed to know.

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Old 12/19/08, 7:47 PM   #760
Terenus
Banned
 
Undead Rogue
 
Twisting Nether
A question I had regarding Muti pve specs-
I'm having trouble deciding between Turn the Tables and Master Poisoner. I've heard that Master Poisoner is better for 5/10 mans, and Turn the Tables for 25 mans. As of right now I'm doing a mix of both, with neither claiming importance over the other. What would you say is the better option overall?

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Old 12/19/08, 8:30 PM   #761
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Well, the point is that Master Poisoner, as a raid buff, contributes a large amount of group DPS... assuming no one else is doing it. So if you almost always have a ret pally or ele shaman around to apply the +crit debuff, you'll do better with TtT; if you don't, Master Poisoner is clearly superior. So, look at your group comp - if you almost always have another source of the crit debuff (or at least, almost always on DPS-limited encounters), TtT will be the better choice; but if you find yourself without it with significant regularity, you should get Master Poisoner instead.

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Old 12/19/08, 9:38 PM   #762
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, the point is that Master Poisoner, as a raid buff, contributes a large amount of group DPS... assuming no one else is doing it. So if you almost always have a ret pally or ele shaman around to apply the +crit debuff, you'll do better with TtT;
This advice is really best expanded to ANY paladin.

Heart of the Crusader is a standard talent for Protection paladins who want to get up the tree to Pursuit of Justice.

It's an even more standard talent for Holy Paladins who want to get up the tree for all that juicy crit.

Paladins of any spec will be judging every 30 seconds.

So long as the paladin is on the primary DPS target (which is the main advantage of a RET paladin specifically), of any spec, TTT is better.

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Old 12/20/08, 3:01 PM   #763
Hallagenic
Banned
 
Human Rogue
 
Malfurion
Originally Posted by Leto View Post
I just switched to combat to help my guild on progression, but I am not nearly as familiar with combat cycles.

The pocket guide suggests this for a rotation:



but the spreadsheet lists the optimal rotation for me to be 3s/5r/5e.

Combat rogues out there, do you find something like 3s/5r/5e easy to maintain, or do you simply do 5s/5r and fit in however many eviscerates as your cp allows.

I assume 3s/5r/5e would be more optimal, but requires more luck with the RNG for ss glyph procs, but I haven't gotten the chance to test out rotations in a fully raid buffed situation.

For reference, my spec is 15/51/5 with only cqc.
Ok one what glyphs are you running, if you're running snd glyph then a 3s/5r/5e rotation with imp snd talented is completely doable but it may not be wise as you may end up drooping off snd before you get back to three combo points for snd. I on the other hand run Ar glyph, Rupture glyph, and Sinister Strike, i find it quite easy on moving fights to keep up a 4s/5r/4-5e rotation without any send downtime. The real pickle you get into is when your snd glyph procs going into your 3rd combo point. Obviously this means you're just running a 5snd for the next rotation but it can still throw you off a bit.

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Old 12/20/08, 4:00 PM   #764
metroidman
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Can someone help me figure out why my DPS is so low?

In Heroics, I end up doing 1400ish DPS

The World of Warcraft Armory

My rotation is SS, S&D, SS5x, S&D, SS5x, Rapture.

I dont know if its just my gear or if I'm doing something wrong.

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Old 12/20/08, 4:18 PM   #765
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by metroidman View Post
I dont know if its just my gear or if I'm doing something wrong.
In heroics, ruptures might a waste, if stuff dies too fast.

As for gear, no meta gem helm, no enchant on shoulders, no enchant on chest, no reason for blue gem on chest w/o meta, no enchant on bracers, no gem on belt, no enchant on boots, no enchant on sword, no enchant on dagger, slightly overcapped on expertise (1 too many), talent wise 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword Spec is slightly better.

Using wound poison over instant poison?

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