Krollin

You are having to shift more than just one point from TtT and 1 from Murder to do what I did.

If you are going to use Eviscerate over Envenom as your finisher then you need to invest as many points as possible in Imp Evis which is what I did.

You need to shift all the points out of Murder into Imp Evis and 1 from TtT into Deadly Brew.
The loss of Murder on non-murderable mobs is not tragic, the loss of 2% crit from TtT is not a minor loss in DPS though.

2/3 Imp Evis is not as good as 3/3 and even a maxed Imp Evis with dual IP is not as good as Envenom with IP/DP when you are relying on Deadly Brew to provide the Mutilate poison debuff. The use of an Eviscerate Glyph will not make up for anything like the loss of DPS you incur when trying to do what you suggest.

The point is totally moot if Boss mobs are indeed to both the CP snare and its debuff too.

Now you said you would use the Spreadsheet to see where you can drop other Talent points with little effect.
If you are prepared to do that then the least you could do is answer the other questions you have asked here including the ones about gear, stats etc. All the information you need is in Vulajin's Spreadsheet, I told you what I did to check the numbers out.

 

grindfreak

I was recently told that Offhand swords no longer proc mainhand swings via combat's Sword.


Is this true or false?

 

grindfreak

That would be ideal yes, since your finishers can apply mainhand poisons.

 

Silkcut

The discussion on whether dual instant can out dps instant/deadly began on this very thread back on page 31, post 770, started by theldaran. After some good debate the consensus was that IP/IP is the higher dpser for mutilate builds so long as you have someone else to apply a poison debuff. Start at post #770 and read on...

 

Edrielle

Originally Posted by ant1pathy This is the crux of my question, really. Yes, which really isn't so bad. Mitigated by armor, but with a glyph to boost it's damage... And I like quoteboxes, shut up >.>

Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm not that awesome and experienced as most rogues here, but in my opinion DP beats double IP with Crippling simply because having deadly brew makes you have to drop talents in places that do boost your DPS (Murder, TtT) and (main reason) Envenom applies a buff to you that increases the proc damage of IP and DP by 15% - thus boosting your damage by, what I reckon, a larger amount than double IP + Eviscerating. I'll admit the glyph's an option, but I'm not sure if that pushes its damage over envenom's in raids, considering armour. I've not tested this since I don't know how so I'd very much appreciate backup on this from more experienced people.

EDIT:

Was posting this when

was posted. Cheers. So in this situation one would use f/ex Glyph of SnD, Rupture and Eviscerate, and use Eviscerate instead of Envenom at all times? Envenom's extra chance-to-apply-poisons being less DPS than Eviscerate's gain? Also what spec would one use in this case? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, missing out on 3% crit in combat?

Would really like this answered... this is something I've been pondering but had yet to look into.

 

weirdaljr

Well last night was my first night playing mutilate. 25 Naxx first 2 wings and DPS seemed very similiar to combat, lower on trash, higher on some bosses. Week 1 combat I was raid leading and by far wasn't my best preformance telling everyone what to do, week 2 mutilate was my first attempt and I did let HFB drop sometimes.

Week 1: Wow Web Stats [Angry Dread] / [Webbed Death]
Week 2 Wow Web Stats [Webbed Death] / [Omen of Ruin]

Any tips you guys can see from my WWS? Any recomendations? I basically used [Garr, SnD] then Mut, Mut, Enven, Mut, Mut, Rup all night on week 2. What do ya think?

 

Edrielle

Your cycle sounds fine, and from your WWS I can only judge that mutilate gives you better damage (damage>DPS, right?).
That's all I can deduce from this... I'd recommend you take two raids with more comparable WWS stats as it's nigh impossible to account for the fact you were raidleading in your damage/DPS.

 

Turncoat

thx for your answer sir, as i though

 

grindfreak

Basing this on you being mutilate.

If you are planning to go full time Mutilate you might need to regem for hit and expertise, personally vulajin's spreadsheet shows
the ep values of expertise as higher than ap/agi until i'm capped. suggest you spreadsheet it yourself to get a real answer on if its worth it for you.

you'll also want 237 hit rating to get the maximum out of your poison damage, assuming you have Misery or imp FF
on the boss.

also about your rotation, dont forget that Mutilate does not have a static rotation that you can go by, its very dynamic
and requires you to keep tabs on your current combo points, DP stacks and slice n dice & rupture timers.


Quick Recovery might be ideal for you aswell, until you hit the expertise cap, since everything in naxxramas is undead (with the exceptions of Faerlina and Maexxna) and murder does little for you.

dont forget to actively use Tricks of the Trade actively on the highest non-threat capped damage dealer within range
on cooldown. noticed a lack of it on several fights according to your second wws.


things arent bad overall, just needs a bit of finetuning.

 

Edrielle

Hm, question about the patch.

The new engineering gloves enchant, are they now better than the 44 AP enchant?

Editted a typo.

 

lunael

I'm currently using MH:[Anarchy] / OH:[Librarian's Paper Cutter]. And with the double IP proc bug fix, it's now better to use IP MH and DP OH, right?. In my previous mutilate raids prior to 3.0.8 I was using SLOW MH and FAST OH since the [Anarchy]was a bigger upgrade than the LPC. I'm a bit confused again as I hear people using FAST MH and SLOW OH again, but I feel the [Anarchy]will be wasted in the OH slot. Can anyone confirm/clear this up for me?


P.S:
Did you NE rogues notice how BAD the Stealth Animation is.. again? It's even worse than the pigeon walk, it's hyperspeed pigeon walk and it looks like you might be able to have lift off when using sprint.. /facepalm.

 

◊ chalon

You're approaching the cycle completely incorrectly. In fact, 50% of the time you should not be doing 2 Mutilates before a finisher. As soon as you hit 4 CPs, you do a finisher. Top priority is to keep HfB up, then keep SnD up (refresh via envenom), then maximize Rupture uptime. If you have 4 CPs do NOT Mutilate again. Do your finisher. On average, you will do approximately 2 Envenoms for every Rupture.

EDIT: Oh and FWIW, I do not like opening with Garrote. I prefer to just immediately open from Stealth with Mutilate x2 followed by SnD, so I can immediately go into a Rupture as the next finisher.

Napkin math I did on the enchant couple weeks ago indicated it was maybe ~40-50 EP better than 44 AP. Which still isn't as great of a benefit as the other professions which give you ~64 EP, but if you factor in the PvP advantage of the goggles it's a respectable choice (if you care about PvP).

You should run LPC Main Hand w/ IP. Anarchy OH w/ DP.

 

jest788

I have a Glyphs question. I am a combat sword rogue that ran the 3 major glyphs:

AR
Sinister Strike
Rupture


According to the spreadsheet, I get the most DPS from those. But, since the latest patch, I know that the AR Glyph was fixed to not give the 1 min CD for KS.

So my question is this, would it be better to get the SnD glyph over the AR glyph?

 

Edrielle

Use the EP system to check which item is better, but I believe that you're right. And yes, I noticed the horrible stealthing anymation. And I chuckled IRl at the lift off comment

 

Darkness280

I understand with the new patch this setup would be the better choice using 1 fast dagger in your mh and 1 slow dagger in your oh, but I don't understand why the slow dagger would go on the OH. Can anyone explain this for me?

 

songster

It is all dictated by Instant Poison.

IP always goes on the faster of your two weapons, whichever that is
IP always goes in your main hand

Yes, this overrules all considerations of item level, stats, base DPS, whatever.

For your main hand, [Webbed Death] >> [Murder] > [Librarian's Paper Cutter]. There are no other choices for main hand weapon.

 

• Maestroquark

A better way to think about it is that you want Instant Poison on your fast dagger, since IP proccing is more important to DPS than DP. Since Finishers have a chance to proc poisons, you get even more sticking your fast dagger in your MH then. Yes, the extra procs are enough to overcome the lost Mutilate damage.

 

Edrielle

[Omen of Ruin] > [Librarian's Paper Cutter]?

For the Omen: (143,3×4,1) + (29×1,6) + (19×1,1) + 76 = 730,83
For the Cutter: (130×4,1) + (46×1,5) + (26×1,6) + (2×35) = 713,83.

So the Omen has a higher EP value for mainhand than the cutter - speed difference incalculated. Then again,

 

◊ chalon

No. Murder and LPC is basically a tossup as is, last I checked it was like a ~5 DPS difference or something. Omen is definitely inferior to LPC.

 

Edrielle

Hm... okay, but the math would appear to disagree. Unless I'm doing something wrong, missing something or something's changed.

 

Iluat

Hi guys, I've post a question in the thread "pocket guide..." and someone told me that the right place were this one. Now I have another question, regarding the Mutilate spec.
I've read the pocket guide and your suggestion about the mutilate spec, but what I'm not understanding is:
What makes the relentless strikes so powerful? If I'd have to make a spec, I'd say that this one is the best:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...00000000000000
I know that I'm wrong, I'd like only a brief explanation about the master poisoner, why don't use it? and why don't using 5/5 close quarter spec? My question derive from this thought: with focused attacks we gain energy from critics, so, why don't amplify critical stryke rating with all our talents?
I'd replace 5/5 relentless strikes with 2 more close quarters combat and 3/3 master poisoner.
Can you explain why you think that this isn't the right way to maximize dps?
Thank so much guys. bye.

 

Rilias

Conserning Edrielles analysis of LPC vs Omen.

You are using EP-Values taken frome some static point of reference.
Those are by nature an approximation that loses precision the farther we go from the gearpoint at wich they were taken.
Since these EP-Values are themselves derived from some spreadsheet I would advise to look for detailed analysis in said spreadsheet. I lose 9 DPS when equipping Omen over LPC in the Vulajin-spreadsheet for eksample. This is so minute a difference that even with all respect to Vulajin's work LPC>Omen can not be considered fact for all raiding PvE Bossfight situations.
Is it our best assumption? I guess. Ask Aldriana's sheet if it has another take on the matter.

Point beeing. EP-Values are used for identifying items that are interesting enough to check closer, but they are not some fancy math thing to proove an item wins in a tight gear comparison.

 

◊ chalon

Iluat: Relentless Strikes is so powerful because of the large amount of energy it will give you, given how many finishers Mutilate will be performing. For example, even in a short fight such as this: Wow Web Stats (few weeks old), I gained 400 energy from Relentless Strikes, which was like 2.3 energy/sec, a roughly 20% increase in energy gain over just the standard 10/sec I would get otherwise.

Edrielle: You can't use EP weights to compare weapons of different speeds. In fact, in general EP weights should just be a rough estimate to do a quick check, not a replacement for a spreadsheet. Because EP weights change as your other gear changes.

 

Tinwhisker

The Master Poisoner buff is covered by default if you have a ret pally or elemental shaman in the raid. This will almost always be the case. You're simply wasting 3 talent points there.

Beaten to the punch on RS.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

weirdaljr

Got ya on the 2 envenoms per one rupture, totally makes sence. I also get that the cycle is dynamic. How do I get to 4-5cp to do finisher w/o 2 Mutilates? I know probibly totaly newb question like I am missing a proc CP or something, but I was just thinking I could get 1 extra from my last finisher, and would then do 2x Mutilates to get to 4-5cp. Again sorry if im missing the obvious.