Yes, it is. But even if you make no effort to time your envenoms whatsoever, it's still 75 DPS ahead. A lesser margin, to be sure, but ahead is ahead.

After the past month of raiding with mutilate, I considered the following:
(1) Hit and haste have a strong positive correlation with envenom.
(2) Eviscerate gives me the freedom of refreshing SnD at will, at the cost of the armor reduction penalty.
(3) Faster weapons obviously play better with envenom.

With these observations, I would assume that stacking agility past the yellow hit cap would alter the difference between using envenom over eviscerate. If one's playstyle dictated the constant use of envenom (regardless of dp stacks on target), wouldn't that player be negatively affected by stacking agility over hit? Conversely, if a player chose eviscerate constantly, wouldn't he / she also be negatively affected if the character stacks hit?

In other words: does one's choice over eviscerate / envenom change EP weights in a significant manner?

Hello guys i could use some help choosing between this two rings, which one would you pick?

[Hemorrhaging Circle]

or

[Signet of Edward the Odd]

While I don't know what you're using for your other ring, I would simple choose Hemorrhaging Circle. However, I am unsure how Signet of Edward the Odd specifically weighs EP-wise. The easiest way to tell is by plugging the two rings into the spreadsheet and observing the difference.

You can't quantify the instant poison dps gain like that. Remember that you'll get around 33% more procs from the offhand on average.

For a more accurate estimate of the instant poison dps gain using vulajin's sheet, set the finisher to eviscerate, put instant poison on the main hand and deadly on the offhand, using the daggers you intend, and possibly modify the spreadsheet to account for partial resists (I'm not sure if vulajin's does this, I forget).


Something else you can do to bring the estimate closer with aldriana's sheet is to switch to AP gems instead of agi if he hadn't done that already, but it won't make a 125 dps difference.

You are completely right Leto, I wasn't considering the double proc chance on the offhand, my mistake. Even still though, I believe my point remainds valid; the numbers are slightly scewed likely because of the double proc oh chance, but even knowing this, there is a large portion of dps that is lost and unaccounted for (or so it seems) in Aldriana's previous breakdown.

The major reason I continue to pursue this is because even with the same spec and gear (the only change I am making is switching mh to IP from DP, using eviscerate instead of envenom.) my own personal tests show IP/IP as potentially better.... Incoming anecdotal evidence, turn away now if this will send you into a rage!

Several 5 minute trials on level 80 grandmaster test dummies yielded some very interesting results (not heroic ones because I am not completely hit capped without a raid and I wanted to simulate conditions as if I were hit capped, err poison hit capped that is).
In any event, even without any poisons on the target, I was consistently seeing anywhere from 2230-2270 with dual IP.
DP/IP was ahead at about 2340- 2395 depending on the fight. This is without increased haste that raid settings bring, which do undoubtedly raise the dps of dual IP more than dp/ip... No sunder armor, faerie fire, or any other manner of armor reducing abilities either, which would boost eviscerate damage thus increasing dual IP dps more than DP/IP. Also, as I said, the target wasn't poisoned, so the 50% increased damage on mutilate was lost.

I am not intending this to prove anything about which set up is better, rather to explain why I believe that something is incorrect here... Because in my own personal testing and trials IP/IP seems to show potential for a notciable increase in dps, and the spreadsheets are at odds, so I'm not quite sure how to solve this issue other than more testing and waiting for possible advancements in the modeling techniques of some of the more mathematically challenging rogue talents.

Hello all. I have a question and a request for advice.

1. Does the Adrenaline Rush Glyph still apply a reduction in the cooldown for Killing Spree? I believe this was a bug that was going to be fixed. Additionally, if the bug still exists, anybody happy with the results?

2. Looking for advice - I am currently rolled Undead, which has mostly PvP racial benefits. Since I play PvP only when forced to and I'm in a raiding guild, would it be worthwhile to roll up a Troll (for Berserking and Beastslaying) or would the benefits be negligible?

My Spreadsheet only changed by a total of 10 dps (3095 to 3085) so maybe not that critical, eh? :P

Most, if not all, of the information that you're requesting will be found in the first post of this thread: Pocket Guide to WotLK

Simple Question

My question is about the trinket you get from the Oracles called Oracle Talisman of Ablution
Oracle Talisman of Ablution - Item - World of Warcraft

Do I have to make the killing blow in order for this to proc? I am thinking about trash pulls in instances. Would it proc if I did damage to the target but did not land the killing blow?

Please do not respond if you don't actually know from experience. Please do not just guess an answer after reading the tooltip. Not trying to be a jerk, I just want to know for sure.

So, there's a couple things going on here.

First, the envenom buff is a 50% increase in IP procs, and in the cycles I'm modeling it has uptime in the ballpark of 50%; as such, you'd expect it's benefit to be around 25% just from that.

Second: the first weapon procs IP more than the second - that's why we chose to put IP on it in the first place. The double OH procs, for instance, are not duplicated on the MH. Between this point and the previous one, I would expect to see the first hand do something like 30% more IP damage than the second.

Now, that said, as you note, we're clearly seeing a bigger gap than that; and the answer turns out to be, well, that I screwed up. When making the modifications I forgot to account for special attack procs and was basically only counting the autoattack IP procs - which is, admittedly, most of the damage IP does, but isn't quite all of it. So, running the correct numbers, we find that there should be another 150 IP damage or so, bringing the overall DPS to 5166 - slightly ahead of DP/Envenom. Of this, 1317.75 is Instant Poison, meaning that if both hands did equal damage, they would each do 659 DPS or so; a single hand instead does 820, which is 32.5% more - about where we expected.

So, all that said: yes, IP/Evis does seem to be slightly ahead of DP/Envenom... but there are some caveats to that. First, I think the sheet as written underestimates Deadly Poison damage. Not necessarily by a lot, mind you, but I'm fairly confident it does by at least a little. This will close the gap somewhat. And second, I still think the inability to poison the mob yourself is... concerning. On bosses, yes, it won't matter as much, but on trash and multitarget boss fights and many other such situations, one will not necessarily have the benefit of poison from other sources. And while it's true that one could put on Deadly Poison for this situation, you'd wind up being specced somewhat incorrectly to make optimal use of this due to the need to take Improved Eviscerate.

So, ultimately: IP/Evis may do marginally more damage in certain circumstances, but has some drawbacks which make me hesitant to recommend it. And the fact that it's as competitive as it is makes me think Envenom could probably use a slight buff - if Mut builds (who need to keep up poison to do optimal damage) are looking seriously at not keeping poison up, that seems to me to be a sign that the abilities are not balanced quite as well as they might be. So it would be my hope that Blizzard gives a glyph or tweaks a talent or some such thing to avoid this conflict of interest at some point - but we'll see what happens.

1. Yes, it does, in case anybody is wondering, which certainly makes it an intriguing glyph.