The way I use Cold Blood in raids is this: My general rule as mutilate is to never use a finisher without >3 cp's, unless of course SnD is going to fall off or something. So if Ruthlessness procs when I'm getting my rotation up, or for some reason I need a quick finisher, I'll Cold Blood Mutilate to guarantee 4 cp's for a good finisher. The raw dps boost from ONE crit Envenom is negligible, so I'd prefer the help with my rotation. I'd be interested to hear what other people have to say about Cold Blood in raiding as well.

Operating off the official blue post of buff categories, found here, all of them directly benefit rogue DPS except for the following:

Ranged Attack Power Buff
Spell Haste Buff
Increased Spell Power Buff
Melee Attack Slow Speed Debuff
Melee Hit Chance Reduction Debuff
Healing Debuff
Attack Power Debuff
Stamina Buff
Health Buff
Intellect Buff
Spirit Buff
Damage Reduction Percentage Buff
Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff
Armor Increase Percentage Buff
Cast Speed Slow

Note that a significant portion of that list are valuable for other reasons (mostly in terms of keeping your tank alive). Regardless: that's what we don't benefit from. Everything else, we do.

I was wondering if anyone can tell me - when is FoK spamming yielding more damage, then me spamming sinister strike or mutilate on trash pulls. Right now i only hit Fok instead of Mut or SS when there is at least 3 mobs up. i am guestimating that anything less than 3 mobs being hit by Fok would be wasting energy.

anyone do the math behind it?

I had a question, blood splatter, Serrated blades, 2pt7, are these things additive or multiplicative?

With Mutilate, with 40% raid buffed crit rate, your Mutilate crit rate will be 61% - that is 84.8% chance to crit with at least one hand and 37% chance to crit with both hands. So, if you CB your Mutilate, there's a 47.8% chance that you will only gain the damage of one hand's worth of Mutilate crit, 37% chance that it does nothing, and 15% chance that you will gain the full damage from a double-crit Mutilate.

For Envenom, using the same 40% raid buffed crit rate, there's a 40% chance that the Cold Blood does nothing, and 60% chance that you gain the full damage worth of an Envenom crit. Considering that Envenom has a 2.06 crit factor and Mutilate has a 2.38 crit factor, it seems that Envenom would be the best choice, if you consider offhand damage penalty and the fact that Envenom ignores armor.

Additive.

Im not sure if this is a simple question or not.
I need help understanding the Cycles page of the spreadsheet.
My dps isnt up to my expectations and Im wondering what Im doing wrong or if Im using the spreadsheet incorrecly all this time.

In 5/10 man instances im only doing around 1450-1600 dps depending the instance.
The spreadsheet if im using it correctly says I should be doing 1400 dps with no buffs what so ever.
My cycle is varies depending on the situation 2s/5r or 5s/5r but I see very little differance in dmg output via recount.

Thanks

Dameian
Fenris

That would depend on your gear/ accesibility to weapons. I read that generally Fist/Dagger is said to be better beacuse of the lack of fast speed swords, with using "webbed death" as you OH dagger. But also Fist/Sword requires you to pledge another 5 talent points into sword specialisation, hence fist/dagger is more economical; talent point wise that is.

Like I said, Calamity's Crasp and Hailstorm vs. Calamity's Grasp and Webbed Death. I've heard conflicting arguments about the subject.
Secondly, is 15/51/5 or 7/51/13 superior? In what conditions is one better then another, etc?
Lastly, at what point can/is Combat superior to Assassination (Lets say I have best-in-slot everything for both talent trees, using standard 51/13/7)?

Results seem to vary from person to person on the spec, so you'll need to use a spreadsheet to find out which one pulls ahead for you. As for outperforming Assassination, at present gear levels Combat will always be behind it, assuming equally geared and skilled players.

Guys, do you have problems with DP post-3.0.8? I changed sinister(DP)/webbed(IP) for webbed(IP)/webbed(DP) post patch, have way above the spell hit cap, all 25man raid buffs and still there are times that I can't simply apply DP and have to shiv. I have tried not shivving sarth yesterday and the first DP I applied was like 10 or more seconds into the fight. It happens from time to time, 10 seconds intervals I can't apply poisons, happens after envenom too, and never noticed that before even with the slow sinister. I'm having bad luck these days?

Silly question, but are you using the max rank?

In playing around with gems in my spreadsheet I am able to achieve the Expertise cap with only 5 wasted rating. This configuration is shown as being 20 DPS lower than if I were to sacrifice 130 of that rating in favor of Agi gems. Is there something I'm not seeing? Or is 20 DPS just statistically insignificant and the added value of being able to maintain my cycle with certainty not being taken into consideration?

Hi,

sorry for getting a little bit off topic but i watched the us forums and hadn't found a thread matching for my questions. So I want to ask if someone of the us guys in here could post my posting in the official forums (they should merge the forums...) because I am from europe an the european cm's arent so cooperative like the devs

Since the last patch the rogue especially mutilate seems to be a little bit broken (from pve perspective), we've lost nearly 1000 dps on some fights due to the mutilate fix (I didn't had the chance to prove it by myself but my guildmate all screamed on patchday in naxx). According to an earlier blue post rogue should be back at the top of the meters with 3.0.8 but all other class nerfes doesn't seems to be so hard as our bugfixes was this intended by Blizzard or can you tell us what are your plans to fix the situation?
PS. can we expect a mutilate glyph or some other useful (in terms of pve) assasination glyphs?

Nope, we lost some dps, but it is in the 1% margin, mutilate fix was only fixing a chance to proc another IP. Check what IP hits for, check how much mutilates you do per second and you will see what we have lost. Hunters really dropped, but meters are still owned by warriors/locks/mages/enh shammies, thats another topic tho and for another patch
ps: your rogues changed to IP/DP now right?

Not sure that hunter dps is lower as our guilds hunter actually picked up a significant amount of dps. He was #1 and continues to be so by a 600-1000 dps margin. It's not that we were terribly nerfed with the mut bug fix, it's just that blizzard has failed to reign in the excessively high dps of the other classes without giving rogues much of anything to buff our single target damage.

I noticed trouble reapplying dp on maly after a vortex in a timely manner. I think it took about 10 seconds one time, maybe less.


I didn't notice any trouble in naxx though with stack up time, probably because I would always have the envenom buff when needing to reapply.

This isn't particularly new at all, actually. Instant poison always goes on your fastest weapon, and because of the damage it can do, it is worth the lost Mutilate damage to put it in your main hand to gain the extra procs from finishers. The only reason for using the faster weapon in the offhand was because of the Mutilate bug where it had two chances to proc. Until the bug was confirmed, faster in the MH with IP was the accepted theorycraft.

It's probably safe to assume he was BM 50/21/0 pre-patch, which they did reign in pretty well, however they buffed the survival tree 2/17/52 (or something like that) quite a bit and if he's smart he switched to that and is doing the same or better DPS as he was pre-patch.

Still, a 1K DPS lead probably has less to do with him than it does with the rest of the raid.

1) If you a fist in the MH and lets say a sword in the OH and you have CQC, would you have ONLY 5% crit applied to the fist weapon or does it work with both? on the character screen it shows a steady 5% so i'm not sure..
2) If you're a human rogue and are combat sword spec, is there a point where combat swords' dps would pass that of mutilate since you have a static +10 expertise and therefore a static dps increase as well as not having to sacrifice gems/gear/whatever for reaching the expertise cap?

1) Only the mainhand fist weapon strikes, which include your finishers.

2) Human sword spec is only 3 expertise and there isn't a sword-only gearset in the game that makes swords competitive for anyone.

I saw WWSes, where combat rogues outperforms assassination ones, but it is unlikely. And tons of posts here (not to mention spreadsheets) clearly state that Mutilate is way better. This means that most rogues prefers Mutilate and since raiding Arms warrior is even rarer case I wonder at which point it is better to spec Combat to apply Savage Combat.

It should depend on the amount of physical DPS (and tanks) in the raid and rogue's DPS drop when speccing Combat.
From my plays with Vulajin's spreadsheet I'll lose ~6-8% DPS (maybe less, depending on gear changes and rare possibility that I'll get Kelthuzad's fist) - so if 4 physical DPS toons will gain 2%, it's a win - assuming that their physical DPS is close to my overall. Definitively not good for PvP/Heroics/10ppl, but in 25ppl raids it seems to be fair trade.

Since current in-game gear has not bad crit (which is good for Focused Attacks) but lacks in hit (which is bad for Combat Potency), I believe that Combat days are yet to come. But meanwhile I have this "Simple Question" for "Simple Answer":

Is it good (raid-wise) to force one of the rogues to spec Combat even if it means noticeable drop in his/her personal DPS?

That is purely a matter of raid composition. It's not as simple as "I'll lose ~6-8% DPS ... so if 4 physical DPS toons will gain 2%, it's a win" because in real play 2% of one players DPS is not the same as 2% of someone else.