Dev93L

Do you mean such that Rogues will be top out of the 10 classes? It would make sense to me, since we're light armored, melee, and provide no real buffs, utilities, or other functions.

If so, do you think it will take until Icecrown and patch 3.4 to get there? I certainly hope not, I was in one of the many guilds that burned out at Kael'thas in TBC.

Anyone with a good, educated idea on this feel free to reply.

 

MasterDinadan

I've seen in a few places (gear recommendations, Shadowpanther) that for mutilate spec, speed matters more for the main hand weapon. That is, given two daggers that are otherwise identical, the fast would go in the main hand.

This doesn't make sense to me. The only advantage I can see at all to using faster daggers is more poison procs and more crits for extra energy. The hand you wield the weapon with has no effect at on all on it's attack rate or crit rate, so both of these remain unchanged if you exchange your weapon hands.

Furthermore, you'll do more mutilate damage by putting the higher damage weapon in main. The off-hand receives a damage penalty, so wouldn't you want the lower damage weapon in that hand to minimize the penalty?

I can see this being a logical move if the fast dagger has superior DPS (and thus is better to wield MH) but even in cases where they are identical (or the slower dagger has more DPS) I still see people using the slower (weaker) weapon in the main hand. Is there some advantage to doing this that I'm missing?

 

saedo

Finishers are main hand damage attacks. That pushes the number of attacks on the main hand greater than offhand.

 

Pygoo

Sorry if it has been already answered , but for both pve and pvp , what is the best weapon enchant ? Mongoose still beats the other ones ( accuracy , berserking) ?

 

Dev93L

I've searched the megathread, and this thread.

Did any testing ever confirm the definition of a combo move? I know it only tooltips in Lethality and Turn the Tables, but logic tells me (and I'm fairly sure) it's combo point building moves (mut, SS). Aldriana posted that he thought similarly but that testing would have to be done to be certain.

 

MrBlackhat

Energy regen from FA as well as the poison procs

 

Maweric

Could you explain what has FA and poison procs has ANYTHING to do which hand do you keep those fast weapons?
As far as I can see I havent found anything what would explain why would you put that Sinisters revenge in OH and Webbed death in MH...its doesent have anything to do with poison procs or FA...so what is it then?
OK so you put IP on fast weapon=OH=no procs on finishers...but if the proc rate is only 30% with talents, wouldnt the damage difference from MH weapon exeed that poison dmg?

 

• Vulajin

According to current spreadsheet models, the answer is no.

 

Maweric

Did changes on spreadsheet and got result of +20dps on fast mh slow oh...ill better believe it

 

MissnL1nK

Can anyone identify as to whether the Mutilate chart on ShadowPanther is correct based on the stats shown here with poison dmg and energy procs or are they still somewhat out of date?

 

Akka

It does exists, but it's in the Subtlety tree, so...

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

Hallagenic

Sorry ill make this simple sense I did not feel like scaning through 171 pst on the pve dps forums that mostly seems to be on TBC and not Lich King.

So ill ask this question here and hopefully get a good answer or have someone who maybe knows the general thread pst number on the Rogue: Pve Dps/Wow Lich King Forum to answer it for me.

Simply put i am a rogue who plans on raiding but am affiliated and mostly attached to using swords over any other weapon. This being said if i can range my dps with swords to about 1% of Assasination with Combat spec i will stay swords. I hope this will be possible sense they are supposed to be again buffing Combat to meet that of what Assasination was showing in beta.

That being said does anyone know of a sword that is of epic quality doing 145 dps or more and and oh (meaning attack speed of 1.50 or lower) that i can attempt to get? This question spawns do to the fact that every sword i see that would be an oh with equivalant damage to that of 145 has an attack speed of 1.60.

Also noting the 1.60, was there some class mechanic changed to rogues that would make a 1.60 speed oh sword do more damage than say a 1.50? I am assuming no due to the fact that oh energy procs are still based on a swing per basis making a faster sword more beneficial.

Also taking into account that sword procs can be obtained via Mh or Oh weapons would it also be better if a sword with 1.50 oh speed is not available to use a dagger with 1.50- preferable 1.30 oh speed and would this in term still make combat a viable spec for raiding in Lk.

That is all for now and i am sorry if this is not in the right forum but the pve/dps forum is currently closed.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

MissnL1nK

 

lypheforce

(1) Similar to many people out there, I'm trying to wrap my head around the ideal mix of HIT and EXP relative to other stats. And I know there is no 'perfect' level since a lot of it is gear driven and you just want whatever gives you best dps, but I'd still like to get a sense of what to shoot for ( ie. soft targets so to speak ). Can you please confirm if my below thinking is correct, or if I"m out to lunch? This is for a combat swords NE with 5/5 precision. From my understanding:

Target 151 HIT rating
Target 132 Expertise rating


(2) Am I also correct in thinking that I should gem Agility > Expertise > Hit ... regardless of whether I've achieved either of the two soft targets above?

Thanks for any assistance & cheers,

Lyphe

 

Dev93L

There's no soft target, there's no hard target, there's just nothing like that. It's whatever combination of gear gives you the best dps possible.

 

saedo

So...

151 HIT rating = 4.605% hit, + 5% precision = 9.6% hit
132 Expertise rating = 4.0256 expertise + 10 expertise = 14 expertise = 3.5% anti dodge

Where did these magic numbers you arrived at come from? I see nothing really special about them. The hit is slightly above the yellow cap and that's about it.

Also, about, Agility > Expertise > Hit , probably not, look at Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers and you'll find a rough generic weight of stats.

 

Kumar

In Terms of Hit, you want to hit the Poison hit cap as soon as possible. As Combat, from TBC, the percentage contribution from white damage has gone down while the percentage contribution from poisons has gone way up.

 

◊ chalon

I'm not convinced by anyone's anecdotal evidence that we actually "need" a damage buff. I do feel like we're a lot more gear dependent than some of the other classes, but I absolutely know that for instance, I'm running about 1.5-2k under what my actual DPS cap is (because my gear is terrible, and it's easy to compare my numbers now to my geared out beta numbers). I think our DPS scales a bit more linearly as we approach our cap, whereas other classes seem to have a more asymptotic approach to their cap. So I do contend that when we're fully geared out, we will be very, very competitive (eg., top 3) on fights like Patchwerk, with our only competition being a Hunter or a Mage with some good Frostfire streaks. Keep in mind, the design is that Hunters, Mages, Rogues, and Warlocks all do nearly equivalent DPS, so it will come down to who has better gear, performs better, and/or is more favored by the RNG.

I do feel like Fury Warriors are a little higher than they should be at the moment, but I'm waiting to reserve judgement until I can see what it's like in a couple months when we're fully geared up. In any event, this is a pretty stupid post though. You can't make an "educated guess" on when Blizzard is going to make any change, especially when it's unclear that anything even needs to be changed based on just some anecdotes.

So, most math suggests that at least for Mutilate (and possibly for Combat), you actually want to go for the spell hit cap as your "soft" cap. So (16 - 5 - 3 - 1) * 26.23 or ~184 hit rating assuming 5/5 Precision, 3/3 Misery (or equivalent), and a Dranei in your group. This is also more than enough rating to cap out your specials, so you're good there.

For expertise ratings, the numbers for the hard cap (6.5% dodge prevention) are:
Mutilate or Combat 0/2 Weapon Expertise (not sure why you'd do that), no racial bonus: 213
Combat 1/2 Weapon Expertise OR Combat 0/2 Weapon Expertise w/ racial: 172
Combat 2/2 Weapon Expertise OR Combat 1/2 Weapon Expertise w/ racial: 132
Combat 2/2 Weapon Expertise w/ racial: 90

 

Eldia

Quick question: Isn't 17% the spell hit cap (not 16%)? Or am I missing something? Thanks.

 

◊ chalon

Hmm, I was under the impression it was 16%. If it's in fact 17%, you'd add ~26 to that number, for a grand total of 210.

 

Tinwhisker

Here are the hit cap tables for special/spell/white:
http://elitistjerks.com/956961-post3931.html

It is 17%; 16% was used for a long time because there was a 1% to miss that could not be removed. This 1% can now be removed so the spell cap is now 17%.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

lypheforce

I apologize for any stupidity in my questions - just want to make sure I don't mis-spec or mis-allocate gem slots, etc .... Lemme see if this sounds a bit more close then ...

210 Hit as a respectable raiding mark
132 Expertise as a respectable raiding mark

And yes, I know there are no magic numbers, but I'm basically trying to get an idea of what to "think" about when looking at my stats and deciding how to gem, etc ...




The 151 number for Hit was what I had been thinking was the poison/spell hit level, but I understand that I was off on that ... 132 on expertise was what I was thinking was the cap for Expertise, and from what I read above, it "looks" like I'm correct on that.

For Agility > Expertise > Hit , it still seems to be correct ( per the post you referred me to ) assuming you are above the poison/spell cap and hit is then reduced to an EP of 1.6 ... or it is at least equal to expertise which I also saw rated at 1.6.

Feel free to correct me if I screwed that up somewhere ...

 

◊ chalon

For Combat, being expertise capped really doesn't matter. Worst case your SS misses, but costs so little that it doesn't lose you much other than a GCD. Your finishers can't be dodged, so you don't have to worry about that. That's not to say expertise isn't useful, but it's not quite that bad if you aren't capped.

For Mutilate however, having your finisher not land at the wrong time can force you to reboot part of your cycle, which not only is frustrating but will cost you DPS. While it's true this can be mitigated by pooling energy and/or making sure you apply say an Envenom with 3s left instead of 1s left. But I like the additional cycle flexibility you get by eliminating the chance your finisher won't land, which is why capping that was one of my first gearing priorities.

 

• Vulajin

Stop doing this. If you know there are no magic numbers, then you know that your first two quoted lines above are wrong. What you should "think" about is getting the best piece of gear at any particular time as indicated by DPS models. Sometimes this will mean your hit or expertise will be at a certain level. Sometimes it won't.

 

Octaviann

Is there a simple rule of thumb for mutilate for how much weapon damage per second .1 speed is worth? I ask so that I can quickly compare, say, a 1.8 speed dagger with higher dps to a 1.4 speed dagger with lower dps without having to plug the particular weapons into a spreadsheet. This would be similar to how, for combat, an offhand the equivalent of a weapon 10 dps higher for every .1 it was faster. I.e, a 1.4 speed 90 dps was equivalent to a 1.5 speed 100 dps offhand. What is a similar conversion for mutilate?