Missdeanna

1. Yeah, I definitely don't do that.
2. Again, I definitely don't do PvP. Can't stand it.
3.The problem with regemming and removing half my hit is that I won't even be close to 315, what I understand to be the special hit cap. I was under the impression that not being hit capped is simply unacceptable for raiding, though I could be wrong. Should I not be paying much attention to hit?

And if I chose to stay combat, I'm guessing I would just want to reach the expertise cap and stack agility?
Someone asked about a WWS report. This is one from being combat fist/dagger. Note the badness.
Wow Web Stats

 

Arnan

I have been playing Mutilate for quite some time in WotLK and have generally had a great time doing it, but when Greed dropped for me I decided to give Combat a try, using LPC in the offhand. I used the spreadsheets to check for rotations and it told that a 3s/5r rotation would be the best for me - I'm using it and I am getting quite good results on damage, no problem there - however, I am consistently having to overlap Slice And Dice with 5-7 seconds left on it to not cap energy. Additionally, it seems that most people here are saying that adding in Eviscerate to the cycle should be the way to go.

My question is now, ever eager to further my performance; Should I run with the rotation the spreadsheet tells me is optimal, ignoring the overlapping of SnD? And in case I am wrong (I might be), are there any pointers to how I should change this?

Final thoughts:
I am only barely out of heroics (My shaman being needed for healing in Naxx rather than my rogue) and I mainly aim for doing 10 man. We only have one shaman (Who puts down spellhaste rather than windfury) and no frost death knights, so no haste, if that could be what made the difference.

 

xmod2

If it will cause you to drop SnD, then you shouldn't do it.

The spreadsheet is telling you 3s/5r to maximize SnD and rupture uptime. An untalented and unglyphed eviscerate is not going to make up the difference of a disrupted cycle for your gear, as per the spreadsheet.

Some fights, Loethab for example, you may be flushed with combo points and it may be a different story. In general I would say it's better to refresh SnD. Since you don't have ruthlessness, getting a three point SnD back up is at least an additional 80 energy, and that's hoping for a SS glyph proc.

 

Leto

Special hit cap is 99.

Poison hit cap is 237 (210 with a draenei in the group).

Rogue at heart.

 

Missdeanna

Then what's this I hear about 17% for poisons?

 

xmod2

Poison hit cap is 315 with no misery or improved FF.

I can't get the WWS to come up, so I can't look at your raid comp.

Again though, hit cap values are not magic numbers. So far in WotLK, I don't find hit nearly as valuable as it was in TBC with combat.

 

Arnan

Thank you, that was what I was looking for

 

Leto

237 is 17% (assuming you have misery or imp faerie fire on the boss).

Rogue at heart.

 

thelastrace

Been raiding combat the past few weeks since the patch since we do not have an Arms warrior. I have been looking for ways to figure out how much rDPS Savage Combat adds to a raid boss (on average). The only way I have found this possible is individually adding all physical damage abilities done for every raider in a WWS for a given boss which is very time consuming. Before I actually bang my head against the table while doing this has anyone done the math already or know a parser that may be able to break things down to add the damage up?

The discussion a guildmate and I have is if other rogue specs are more then the Savage Combat rDPS then why bother speccing combat? The rough estimate we came up with was about 800 DPS so I am trying to find a more precise number. Any ideas on figuring that6 number out would be greatly appreciated.

Thelastrace's Rogue Armory
TLR's Hunter Armory
Fille's Priest Armory
Blended's Warrior Armory

 

◊ chalon

800 DPS sounds like a reasonable estimate. If you assume you have 7-10 physical DPS classes in the raid, and each is doing about 5k DPS, each is gaining maybe 70-100 DPS from Savage Combat. Of course as your DPS goes higher that contribution goes up as well.

I think in for most fights with BiS gear, you'll see Combat be at most 300-400 DPS behind Mutilate (oftentimes, less), which means it would have positive effect in general.

 

Verre

Poison Cap is not as important for combat rogues in comparison to mutilate rogues anyways. That being said your gemming for combat is way off.

I have near BiS gear and i cannot pull off 2/5/5 consistantly without having to use Thistle Tea or dropping Eviscerate points, and 2 SnD is generally considered to be a waste of energy due to the fact that your spending the same energy on a lower amount of SnD uptime.

With your gear I would recommend regemming, keep your one blue gem, one yellow gem, and socket the rest with either 32 AP or 16 Agi red gems. Change your rotation to a safer 4s/5r/5e and pool energy with the few seconds you will have before SnD runs out at the end of your rotation. Once in a while you will have a good streak of extra CPs where you will have to use a 5s, in these situations by using a thistle tea or getting lucky during the rotation with extra CPs you will be able to do a 5s/5r/5e/5r without hindering your rotation. I find this is a very minimal boost but you may only run into this kind of luck once every few boss fights so dont try and produce it, just roll with the extra CPs.

 

buttah

Several quick questions. I've read that Expertise is the stat to stack until hitting cap ( 26 ). Yet I look over some of the best rogues in my guild, best rogues on my server, and best rogues in the world according to wowmeteronline.com/ and the number of rogues that stack expertise vs the rogues who don't are pretty even. I've just started playing / raiding as a rogue and from the looks of it I'm wasting my time putting all my effort into making sure I'm at expertise cap / poison hit cap instead of just stacking AP or AGI. What am I missing?

My other question is one that seems to be very common but with little answer. Agility gems or Attack power gems? Advantages or disadvantages to each? It's the same issue as above. For the most part I've read that Agility is the stat to gem for *if* you have a guaranteed kings. If not AP is the way to go, except the top rogues I've looked up still stack for AP for the most part. Did I just read into something incorrectly?


I hope these questions where short and quick. =x

 

Valustria

As other have said, you don't need that much Hit. And like I said, you might want to redo some of that research, because the caps for Hit and Expertise are -- and this is a phrase people heard a lot in the end of Burning Crusade -- "not magic numbers" that you must have to deal good damage; they are guidelines for where those stats become less effective/valuable relative to other stats.

One thing you could do is look at some of the Armory profiles of rogues here who are considered to know their shit -- Aldriana, Zulajin, Latito, Chalon, etc. -- and see what they are doing for gems and enchants. (And I'm not placing myself among them in terms of contributions to these forums, by any means, but if they all spec Mutilate and you want an example of how to gem for Combat, you can take a look at my Armory profile. EDIT: Although, I'm a Jewelcrafter, so I get away with socketing for all my bonuses in ways that most rogues won't.) See what stats they have, compare them to what you have, what you think you should have after doing more research, and see if you can figure out why they do it that way.

Personally, I would change some of your gems and enchants, try to run a more practical cycle like 4s/5r/5e, and see what happens. That might just do it for you -- good luck!

"In emptiness there is good, but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the way exists, and the mind is empty."
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Scroll of Emptiness, The Book of Five Rings

 

Warbz

Recently I respecced combat after being mutilate since the launch of WoTLK and I am having trouble deciding on which glyphs to use. On the pocket guide it recommends SnD, Rupture, and Sinister strike. The spreadsheet tells me that eviscerate will beat out envenom for my gear but I can't decide if I should drop SnD or Rupture to pick up the eviscerate glyph. I was planning on trying a 4/5/5 or 5/5/5 rotation as 15/51/5. Thank you in advance for any responses or assistance.

 

◊ chalon

Well, if you're Combat capping expertise isn't really necessary. You've got Surprise Attacks, so you're finishers aren't going to dodge, and your cycle is flexible enough that even if your SS gets dodge it's not that big of a deal.

For Mutilate, at most gear levels you're going to see Agi, AP, and Expertise at roughly the same EP values. So really, your conclusion is correct that there isn't an absolutely definitive reason to stack one vs. the other.

My personal preference is to cap expertise simply because I contend in the long run, the flexibility of being able to Envenom at <2s on SnD if necessary, and be guaranteed it's not going to get dodged is more beneficial. Having something get dodged at the wrong time can be frustrating. But if you have good dice rolls or always Envenom earlier on your SnD then it's not a big deal.

And Agi vs. AP is the same deal. It's a close EP value, which means that either/or helps you. The reason I prefer Agi is because of the dodge it gives you, as well as the stat is more useful in PvP compared to AP.

 

Missdeanna

I too am a JC so this should be a bit easier for me than most other rogues, I would guess. I noticed you're using Hailstorm instead of a dagger. I too have an enchanted Hailstorm and I'm wondering if your spec would be better to emulate than mine, which utilizes Webbed Death and zero points in Sword Spec.

As four of my points are essentially throwaway points to get me down to the 51 point talent, I don't feel like it would be much trouble to try your spec out. Any opinions?

 

Valustria

To be honest, that's going to depend entirely on what a spreadsheet tells you AND what you prefer for whatever else you do in game. Zulajin's spreadsheet puts [Calamity's Grasp]/[Hailstorm] with 4/5 Sword Spec. ahead of [Calamity's Grasp]/[Webbed Death] for me, but your mileage may vary based on other factors. I do miss having a shorter cooldown on Sprint and Evasion, along with Unfair Advantage when I'm solo farming, though... so, see what the spreadsheets say for you and decide whether or not you want to make that compromise.

"In emptiness there is good, but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the way exists, and the mind is empty."
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Scroll of Emptiness, The Book of Five Rings

 

Missdeanna

I guess another question would be this: our spriest is about 50/50 on raid attendance and our boomkin is not imp ff specced. That said, should I make sure I'm always at 315 so I'm fine for when we DON'T have those buffs?

 

Leto

In this case I would either suggest that the boomkin go imp ff since he is a more reliable raider, or carry two sets of gear, one with 315 hit and one with 237. I wouldn't gem for 315 all the time, since when you *do* have misery, the opportunity cost would be higher, and I'd imagine you'll have misery when you need the dps to count most.

Rogue at heart.

 

Valustria

Nah. Someone did the math once, and I'm sure it's around here somewhere, but here's the short version: you are better off assuming you have the buffs and gemming for Agility, even if you don't get them, than if you assume you won't have them and gem/enchant for all that Hit Rating.

"In emptiness there is good, but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the way exists, and the mind is empty."
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Scroll of Emptiness, The Book of Five Rings

 

Andeh

On the topic of Mutilate vs. Combat, I'm having a hard time deciding what is better for working on 10m Sarth+3. Raid composition would be melee focused, with a Prot Warrior tanking the drakes (so wouldn't need to EA). I've played around with the Roguecraft spreadsheet, turning the combat duration down to 40 seconds, since in terms of DPS comparison we're mostly interested in how fast you can burn Shadron. Assuming my current gear, I'm showing a 550ish DPS difference between Mutilate (with Murder) and Combat. If you figure that only 4 other DPS (plus the tank) are going to benefit from Savage Combat, it seems like the RDPS difference isn't enough to overcome Mutilate's lead. On the other hand, there are certain intangible benefits to ignoring the relatively minor lead of Mutilate, and going Combat, such as Endurance and Throwing Spec.

So for those of you who've done the 10 man version of Sarth+3, how did you make your decision on spec for this encounter, and what did you chose?

 

◊ chalon

I went Mutilate when we did Sarth+3 in the physical DPS group. It was like, 2 Hunters, myself, Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman and Moonkin (jumped into caster to spot heal as well) as the DPS.

I'd say in general for the 10 man you're better off sticking with Mutilate.

 

• Feist-Mok

I went combat for it, I found the on-demand burst and AE of Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush, and Killing Spree to be superior for the nature of the fight - this was however, before 3.0.8 (haven't done 10 man 3D since), which would likely tip the scales somewhat in Mut's favor.

 

vatista

Is there a noob Forum at all?

Im a Rogue, i have just specced PVP Mutilate but my gear is more PVE. (i think i would like to just concentrate PVE as i have always been a PVP guy) And i have looked through the forums and have to admit that i find it quite hard to follow along with what most of you WOW Geniusus are saying! Kudos to you for being so smart in this field i wish i had half your knowledged on the matter.

I want to Raid and pull out some Good DPS. a few questions i have and have yet to be able to find an actual answer to are as follows:

1) What are best Mods for PVE/PVP i have only been back to playing LK after a break and have picked up Recount, DBM and Proximo. As a Rogue should i have any others?

2) as Mutilate the rotation im gathering i should use from reading the Forums is 3cp SnD 5cp Rup Rinse repeat? and throw in the odd Envenom.. did i read this correct?

3) Hit Cap, this is going to sound very noob but please understand that i am. i have 197 Hit atm. what should i aim for for PVE? and for PVP what Hit is sufficient?

I read the terms on posting here and understand you dont want to see my Armoury to help in that way and that is fair enough, for any random passer byer who does want to see my Rogues name is MASE in Jubie'thos.

If my questions can be answered elsewhere please just give me the link and il read myself but i must admit i was having trouble finding the answers i wanted.

thanks

 

xmod2

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

The link dropped a bit down the page, but you should check out this thread first.

For add ons, having Rogue Power Bars or some mod to track the duration of your SnD, Rupture and Hunger for Blood is pretty much essential to maximize your dps.

For your rotation, envenom refreshes SnD due to Cut to the Chase. Once you start up your SnD you should never need to reapply it and you use Envenom to keep SnD up instead. Again, read that thread and it should give you everything you need to know for raiding.

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