Our guilds mages have all but went arcane and last night while doing an quick sartherion10 we had a group with mostly physical dps and one Mage. The discussion came up wether it was best to put focus magic on me (a decently geared mutilate rogue) or a healer. After minimal testing it seems a rogue is able to keep the buff on the Mage. While probably not the best raid use of the buff (a modification of the spreadsheet appears to only give me ~12 dps).

Question is, would the buff in the before mentioned situation be better applied to a healer or a well geared rogue?

I was wondering whether you had another source of poison debuff on the target eg from another rogue or hunter to keep the +50% mutilate damage up? Assuming that i'm the only rogue in a 10 man raid with no other viable posion debuff kept on boss, this idea of running double IP with eviscerate would not be comparable to the damage output of IP/DP + evenom correct?

This might be a really dumb question, but have any of the Rogue spreadsheets been updated for the 3.0.8 Mutilate bug fix?

Or, rather, were the spreadsheets already "correct" and therefore with the current Rogue mechanics we were *already* supposed to be Main Handing a faster weapon?

Yes Vuljin's, read the version updates of the spreadsheet.

Hi. My first post here and it's in regards to my recent damage on my guilds 'Make Quick Werk Of Him' achievement attempt.

I'm a fairly well geared Rogue. Almost Expertise capped, not so much hit but enough and plenty of AP and Crit. What I wanted to know was, am I doing the right rotation as Combat spec? In a fight such as Patchwerk i'm simply doing a 5 SnD/5 Rupture/5 Envenom and repeating. However I only pulled 3,380dps in our best attempt. The WWS for those that are curious is here.

I'm not here to ask about how to deal my damage. But are there any other 'tighter' rotations that I could be doing?. At the moment, I feel like i'm wasting a lot of energy on renewing SnD when I don't need to. I am a post 3.0 level 70 dinged Rogue, meaning the last time I touched Combat was during 1-69. I hope this is considered a simple question, thanks.

You can tighten it up to 4s/5r/5e or 3s/5r/5e, in the second case you can cut it short to 3s/5r/4e if you feel like SnD may drop. Do not use envenom as combat. Only mutilate rogues with improved poisons, using instant poison in one hand, should use envenom.

Bah, I try to track this stuff down on my own but little luck this time. Anyone recommend an addon to track trinket hidden cooldowns?

If there's a single addon that would track: Rupture, SnD and trinket hidden CD that would be perfect.

No, but you could combine "NeedToKnow" and "Procodile".

One of my rogue friends told me that there was a post breaking down the MAEP of the Grim Toll in this thread, I have gone through the entire thread and was unable to find this. He claims that it is actually the best dps trinket for rogues currently clocking in around 220 MAEP and that Mirror of Truth is a second at around 180 MAEP. In the pocket guide to wotlk it claims that the best three trinkets are Fury of the Five Flights, Mirror of Truth and Darkmoon card: Greatness. Can anyone provide some insight as to the accuracy of the conflicting statements?

I don't know who came up with those EP values for Grim Toll. But those 3 trinkets you listed are the best. Greatness is the top one, and then after that Fury and Mirror are close. Grim Toll is like 4th or 5th best.

It should be noted that Combat specs gain a lot more from Grim Toll, mainly due to the massive ArP proc. E.g. for myself, Grim Toll comes ahead of both FotFF and MoT on the Roguecraft Spreadsheet. However, it wasn't too long ago when it didn't, so it's better that you check the spreadsheet for yourself.

That info is slightly dated, I thoroughly checked and I am not currently aware of any bugs in the armor penetration model.

Ok, this question is specifically for rogues in guilds that are downing Sartharion with all three drakes, because I'm only interested in replies from those whose tanks are in excellent gear and clearing the most challenging encounters:

Who is your Tricks of the Trade target? Do you trick another DPS who can dump threat, or do you trick the tanks holding whatever you are currently attacking?

I ask because I used to be in guilds that... well, were not all that great. I used to trick tanks all the time to help them pick up and hold aggro on their targets . I recently joined a guild that is much more competent overall and someone commented on my use of TotT on the main tank, saying that the tanks in my old guilds must have sucked if they needed for me to use it on them. Well... that might be so, but it was necessary sometimes, and I feel nervous about going into an encounter without throwing at least my initial burst of aggro to the tank. Any advice about what to do?

Using Tricks on the whelp tank is usually a good idea; it absolutely trivializes AOE tanking. There's pretty much zero risk that anyone is going to pull aggro from the whelps if you do so.

Giving the drake tank Tricks right as the drake lands will also help rule out any chance that people pull early aggro, while the tank is building up threat and may be caught in an unlucky situation. So, those are the only good situations to Tricks a tank - any other time the cooldown is up, you might as well give it to DPS.

@Grim Toll, it's a lot better than most people give it credit for, specially for Combat builds. For Mutilate, it's very unlikely that it is competitive, but for Combat, it's definitely situationally better than Fury of the Five Flights for a number of boss fights (depending on fight duration or interruptions that favor an ICD trinket).

It's entirely situational.

As a rule of thumb the first tricks goes to the tank, and every tricks thereafter can be used on DPS. There are exceptions of course though, and Sarth 3D is probably the best example of one. On that fight, I tricks the Drake tank as each drake lands - our other Rogue tricks Sarth to out MT at the pull so that I don't have to yell at the idiots who insist on DPSing him while he's being positioned, and then Tricks+FoK for the whelp tank - after that, we trade Tricks between ourselves for the rest of the fight.

On Sarth3D I put TotT on drake tank when Tenebron lands and when it's AoE time after Tenebron's death I put it on the adds tank. That's about it. I don't put it on any DPS because the CD is usually in line with each drake's landing/death that I would feel safer putting it on a tank so that no one dies by pulling aggro.

Disclaimer: I'm horrible at articulation at times, this being one.


I have been running 51/13/7 since i hit 80, with only 2 points in ruthlessness and 1 point in vigor+glyph, seeing as how there really isn't a third glyph worth grabbing.

Recently I gave in to the final min/max, I had total control over, and transferred the point i had in vigor into ruthlessness in an attempt to net 5 more dps as shown in the spreadsheet.

The issue i was having after that is I would cap out energy waiting for rupture to fall so i can refresh it to resume generating CPs for my envenom. I'm well ahead in my rotation, having 4 combo points for a rupture and 15-17 or so seconds left on slice and dice yet I just can't seem to not cap out my energy whilst pooling before rupture/waiting for rupture to fall(I get the "a more powerful spell is active when i try to refresh a 4pt rupture with another) without vigor+glyph for pve.


If it helps to know, i pool all i can(75+ energy) before using my finishers, especially envenom, so i am able to fire off 2 mutilates within the envenom +% to proc poisons buff.
I time my envenoms between DP ticks as well as cut to the chase at >2seconds and refreshing HfB at 1-2secs.

Am I pooling too much energy?
Using my finishers at the wrong time?
Is the rupture glyph screwing me?


I'm at a total loss atm.

Also, perhaps this question belongs elsewhere but is there a benefit to being able to pool that extra 20energy at the loss of a 20% chance to get a random CP proc on a finisher?


(the only variable worth noting, outside of my control, is that i live and work outside the US and have an inherent latency of about 270-350ms)

Downed S25-3D 4 times already, I always use TotT on the tanks as I'm about to overagro and the others are completely capped
People are trigger happy and I use TotT at the very start someone pulls agro first 2-3 seconds for granted

If you're pooling for rupture and you're about to cap, try just envenoming. You should have plenty of time to get 4+ more cp before rupture drops.

The main time I pool significantly is for reapplying rupture, while I envenom usually as soon as I can. I'll wait for a tick of dp, etc, but I generally don't do more than 3 seconds of pooling for an envenom unless snd is about to fall off.

Are you opening with garrote or mut on boss fights? I've found opening with garrote is a DPS gain over opening with mutilate. I know there are some complaints over positioning for garrote but I've had very few problems in this regard.
If things go right I can open with a garrote, SnD, mut to 4 CP, Rupture, mut, and then envenom.

Also right now I have Murder and LPC, would you put Murder in the MH? 6 weeks of Naxx and no WD /cry!

Thanks.

That's the thing, "if things go right". About half the time you won't be able to do 1 mut finishers, and you basically need 1 mut finishers to get that sequence off.


Also, you should probably use LPC in your mh and murder in your oh.

Ah, okay.

Well, even so if Grim Toll is better for Combat in certain scenarios, it certainly isn't by a huge amount (as those EP values which were posted would suggest).