Sword Specialization is not strictly an offhand proc though is it?
I suppose I should have been more clear. My intention was to say that Sword spec would not likely be proc'd by offhand sword FoK attacks because there are currently no offhand procs allowed in FoK (except poisons).
I'm also working under the logic that there are currently no mainhand raid level swords (at or near BiS). I failed to really address the fact that you're still using a mainhand sword. I apologize.
Trinket questions regarding the spread sheet values for Combat spec:
Mirror Truth
Bandits Insignia
Grim Toll
Im currently at 313 hit rating. When I pop Grim Toll into the spread sheet in place of Bandits Insignia or Mirror of Truth, I get I get a significant dps increase of 7.
I dont understand how, if HR is only worth 1.4 (according to the Pocket Guide) after Poison Hit Cap is reached at 315, Grim Toll can be superior to Bandits Insignia's 190 AP or Mirror's Crit?
It certainly can't be Grim's Equip: Armor Pen because thats only valued at 1.2 AEP
It would seem to me that the spread sheet isn't reducing the value of HR after the poison cap is reached.
Secondly, Mirror of Truth vs Bandit's Insignia seem to be identical in the spread sheet yet Mirror has 83 Crit (1.5 AEP) and Bandit has 190 (2.0 AEP). Surely Bandit's has got to blow Mirror out of the water unless Mirror's 1000ap for 10s is amazing compared with Bandit's Arcane proc?
Ok, so I currently have: 225 hitting (Armory is down, so I can't really link at at the moment - Alexstar on Draka in Darkness Beyond Twilight for future reference)
Am I better off using The Sphere of Red Dragons Blood ([Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood]) for it's +55 hit rating (and 670 AP on use)
Or am I better off finding another trinket (I have Darkmoon Card: Death ([Darkmoon Card: Death]) for it's +85 Crit rating in the bank)
I realize I could get/buy the Nobles one, but I'm rather poor at the moment and can simply not afford it. So is there anything else i should be looking for, or is Dragon Blood good until I pick something up from 10 man Naxx?
Stupid me, forgot to mention I'm a mutilate build.
Thanks for the input Tinwhisker. I am running a Silent Crusader in my MH and Hatestrike OH. Not that trash DPS is very important but I guess just gaining 5% more crit on FoK is yet another reason (among many) to give up on my swords and get a silly looking Calamity and a Webbed Death.
The other thing worth noting about Grim Toll is that the value of armor penetration is somewhat nonlinear. Hence, while 1 point of ArPen might only be worth 1.2 AP, the value of 100 ArPen is going to be worth somewhat more than 120 AP. Now, for most items - which usually have less than 50 ArPen - this effect is pretty small; but for Grim Toll, where you have over 600 ArPen, the nonlinearity is somewhat more important. In particular, it works out that the proc is about 15% more powerful than you'd expect based on the EP value of ArPen.
As an aside: this also makes some assumptions about theinternal cooldown on Grim Toll, which, so far as I know, has never actually been tested. We know the proc rate is 15% from wowhead, but as far as I know the internal cooldown used in both sheets has been set by the assumption that it's probably similar to the other trinkets introduced in Wrath, but it has not actually been tested. So if someone with the trinket would like to give us a half hour (or more) of autoattacking the target dummy, that would be helpful in verifying the value of the trinket.
The other thing worth noting about Grim Toll is that the value of armor penetration is somewhat nonlinear. Hence, while 1 point of ArPen might only be worth 1.2 AP, the value of 100 ArPen is going to be worth somewhat more than 120 AP. Now, for most items - which usually have less than 50 ArPen - this effect is pretty small; but for Grim Toll, where you have over 600 ArPen, the nonlinearity is somewhat more important. In particular, it works out that the proc is about 15% more powerful than you'd expect based on the EP value of ArPen.
As an aside: this also makes some assumptions about theinternal cooldown on Grim Toll, which, so far as I know, has never actually been tested. We know the proc rate is 15% from wowhead, but as far as I know the internal cooldown used in both sheets has been set by the assumption that it's probably similar to the other trinkets introduced in Wrath, but it has not actually been tested. So if someone with the trinket would like to give us a half hour (or more) of autoattacking the target dummy, that would be helpful in verifying the value of the trinket.
I've been running procodile every since I got the Grim Toll and 45 seconds is definitely the internal cooldown. I can usually count on Greatness and Grim Toll to synch up almost every proc.
Agreed and confirmed. I experience a consistent 45 second internal cooldown on grim toll, and frequently use that synched timer with greatness time my cooldowns with trinket procs and bloodlust.
You are reading it wrong.
Tricks applies one buff to the rogue when he uses it. When he hits something while under it he (and the player the tricks were used on) gains another 6 sec Tricks. So the rogue applying Tricks actually gains 'Tricks of the Trade' buff 2 times per cast.
In your WWS non-rogues gained Tricks 81 times. The rogues gained it exactly 162 times.
So they never actually exchanged it.
I'm pretty sure the buff that goes on the rogue that casts Tricks of the Trade is also called Tricks of the Trade. So, while yes, they are casting it on each other (not a bad thing by any means, imo), the numbers are inflated.
I've been using EJ as a reference for a long time. Thanks to all the people add so much to these forums, and help the less-educated out! Now onto my question...
I have read that some people constantly use ToTT on their tank as OFTEN as they can. I have also read about people using it on others in their raid to increase DPS. I know that some fights differ from others, but I would like to get some feedback on how different people use it during certain times.
On Sarth I really only use ToTT when our MT pulls (putting ToTT on our MT). On Malygos I'll use ToTT after each vortex. I would like to be able to start using ToTT more on my raid members that provide good, solid DPS. When is a good point to start doing that? I know that it's really good to let the tank get a good amount of threat before you start dumping all of yours onto another DPS.
What I'm really asking is on Sarth +3, would it be best to start using ToTT on other DPS when it's only Sarth left? How big of a lead in threat does a MT need in order SAFELY use ToTT on another DPS?
Some of the answers to these questions may depend on my gear, spec, and DPS but I would like for you to answer the questions as if I was completely geared and ready for Ulduar.
Last Question:
I'm sorry, but what does, "EP" stand for? I have read about the different values, but I don't think anywhere on these forums has anyone actually said what, "EP" stands for. Sorry if that was a stupid question
EP stands for Equivalence Points. It is a means for comparing stats - the notion is that if two items have comparable total EP values, they will do similar DPS and are thus roughly equivalent. By convention we assign 1 AP a value of 1 EP, but you could base the system off any stat - in point of fact, a lot of early rogue theorycraft was done using Agility Equivalence Points (AEP) - which is where the name comes from - with the convention that 1 agility has a value of 1 AEP. But there are problems with this approach, and more recently the convention has been to use EP based off 1 AP = 1 EP.
Regarding Tricks: so, from a purely theoretical perspective, it is a raid DPS gain to use TotT on *someone* every cooldown. If anyone is remotely close to being threat capped, you should use it on the tank to prevent threat capping; if everyone is safely behind the tank, you can Tricks whoever you want without aggro issues. In the OS+3 scenario: by the time you kill the drakes and stuff, the MT should have an insurmountable aggro lead by the time you get back to Sarth, so you should be able to Tricks DPS safely. In terms of an actual crossover point: it's sort of a judgement call. If there are DPS at 99%, you clear want to tricks the tank; if no one is above 50, you clearly want to tricks the DPS. But what about 95%? Probably still tank. 75%? Probably still DPS. But whether the exact line is at 80 or 85 or 90 or whatever sort of depends on the fight and your guild.
EP stands for Equivalence Points. It is a means for comparing stats - the notion is that if two items have comparable total EP values, they will do similar DPS and are thus roughly equivalent. By convention we assign 1 AP a value of 1 EP, but you could base the system off any stat - in point of fact, a lot of early rogue theorycraft was done using Agility Equivalence Points (AEP) - which is where the name comes from - with the convention that 1 agility has a value of 1 AEP. But there are problems with this approach, and more recently the convention has been to use EP based off 1 AP = 1 EP.
Regarding Tricks: so, from a purely theoretical perspective, it is a raid DPS gain to use TotT on *someone* every cooldown. If anyone is remotely close to being threat capped, you should use it on the tank to prevent threat capping; if everyone is safely behind the tank, you can Tricks whoever you want without aggro issues. In the OS+3 scenario: by the time you kill the drakes and stuff, the MT should have an insurmountable aggro lead by the time you get back to Sarth, so you should be able to Tricks DPS safely. In terms of an actual crossover point: it's sort of a judgement call. If there are DPS at 99%, you clear want to tricks the tank; if no one is above 50, you clearly want to tricks the DPS. But what about 95%? Probably still tank. 75%? Probably still DPS. But whether the exact line is at 80 or 85 or 90 or whatever sort of depends on the fight and your guild.
Thank you for taking the time to explain some of these basics to me.
Quick question (only asking because I can't find the answer via searching)...
It's fairly common knowledge (unless I'm wrong) that Rogues by default have a 1.0 second GCD, and all other classes have a 1.5 sec GCD.
My understanding is that Haste will reduce your GCD, with enough haste can hit 1 sec GCD, however since Rogues are already at that by default we don't (currently) gain that added benefit from haste...
My question is then, is this correct ... or can rogues effectively reduce their GCD aswell?
...
Purely speculation but if not then that'd be an easy way to add benefit to Haste for Rogues (set the cap at 0.5 GCD instead?)
First, haste only reduces the cooldown on spells, not on physical attacks. There is no current way of reducing the GCD on physical attacks. So the fact that we're already at the cap doesn't really hurt us in that respect. And second: rogues are so rarely GCD-locked in PvE that I'm not sure it would matter much to have it lowered. About all that would accomplish is allowing us to perform some ridiculous PvP burst (which doesn't need the help) without helping PvE DPS (which does).
And second: rogues are so rarely GCD-locked in PvE that I'm not sure it would matter much to have it lowered.
Being Combat spec, with Combat Potency procs (during Blade Flurry/SnD/Bloodlust what not) and AR often I'll hit Energy Cap due to not being able to use CD's fast enough because of GCD...
Mind you thats a very specific example, but it does happen...
Last edited by shaddowz : 02/07/09 at 1:41 AM.
Reason: Edit: Mis-read the first part of your reply
You shouldn't. GCD is one second, which means to even break even - much less gain energy while spamming - you need to regen about 40 energy per second - maybe 35 due to weaving finishers. And baseline regen - even during AR - is only 2/3 of that. So unless you're getting 4 OH hits per second so as to make up the rest in CP procs (and you're not), you should still slowly spend down energy even during AR.
You are correct to say that Fan of Knives is not normalized, but your conclusions from this are very wrong. Because Fan of Knives is unnormalized, weapon speed has significant effect on the damage dealt by the ability. Weapon speed dictates how much damage is added by attack power.
In fact, the opposite of your conclusions is true. The average damage range is almost entirely overshadowed by the weapon speed. The value that you must maximize is the sum of the average damage range and your attack power multiplied by the weapon speed (further multiplied by 1.5 if a dagger).
I knew there was something at the back of my mind when I posted that, I stand corrected of course.
I couldn't figure out exactly where I should post this question, so I thought "simple questions" would be the best spot. I'm looking for a macro to swap my offhand dagger, cast shiv, and swap back again for when I'm on anesthetic poison duty on Gluth/Sarth adds. I found one that allows me to switch for the shiv, but I can't get it to switch back again. What does everyone else use?
The macro will swap the weapons in your MH and OH. When creating the macro, use the "?" to see which weapon is equipped. Then click it again to swap your weapons back. If you put /cast Shiv as the last line, it will shiv with whatever is in your OH
PickupContainerItem(bagID, slot);
Will let you choose an item from a slot in your inventory, since the weapon you swap out will also land in that slot you can use the same macro twice to swap back and forth.
Looks like this:
The problem with this is that no macro is ever able to account for the GCD triggered by the swap so it doesnt matter, you either hit the macro twice or hit two buttons costing you two GCD to switch and shiv.
You shouldn't. GCD is one second, which means to even break even - much less gain energy while spamming - you need to regen about 40 energy per second - maybe 35 due to weaving finishers. And baseline regen - even during AR - is only 2/3 of that. So unless you're getting 4 OH hits per second so as to make up the rest in CP procs (and you're not), you should still slowly spend down energy even during AR.
You have to account for latency and human response time. The GCD is only one second, but even spamming the button you aren't like to activate the ability EXACTLY once every second... there's gonna be some small margin of time in there that makes your math off a bit. Coupled with some lucky Combat Potency procs (usually during Bloodlust/Heroism, when you are swinging a lot more) and Relentless Strikes returns, it's entirely possible to cap out your energy. I don't think it's a big deal, but it can happen. I typically just save AR for the first time my trinkets proc after our first Bloodlust, unless I know I'll need it for Fan spam (for instance, killing the whelps while fighting Sartharion w/ three drakes).
Last edited by Valustria : 02/08/09 at 12:00 PM.
Reason: Durrr... Relentless Strikes, not Relentless Assault. >_<;;
02/06/09, 3:57 PM
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