German Armory is basicly wrong on this, don't know if that is also the case in the english version.
Expertise Rating is what is on gear and such, this scales with level and translates to Expertise by a ratio of 8.2:1.
Expertise itself is only granted by talents and racials and always boils down to 0.25% less dodge and parry for the enemy.
Short version: Armory is the one using the terms interchangeably even though they are not.
Also the stat you should be looking at is the 31 as that is your Expertise from Rating 21 plus expertise from talents. Basicly what you want to see when capped is the tooltip saying chance to be dodged reduced by 6.5%
PS: Expertise from Expertise Rating is rounded down in the charscreen and this was recently shown not to reflect combat mechanics. Ie. 179/8.2=21.83 rounded down gives 21 while you would in combat benefit from 21.83% expertise.
PS²: Since you are far above the Expertise cap I suggest you try to upgrade itemslots with items less heavy on the stat or take one point out of the Weapon Expertise talent and use it elsewhere.
Thank you for that explanation. I am, however still a bit confused.
For example, in game, I see the following:
On the main display in the melee tab: Expertise 15/15
When I hover over that button, I see: Reduces chance to be dodged by 3.75%; Expertise rating 42 (+5 expertise)
I am still confused as to where I am. I have 2/2 Weapon Expertise and am combat.
Perhaps I am dense, but, in reading the Pocket guide it tells me that I now need 15 Exp with Weap Exp to cap. But, my dodge is only 3.75%, not the 6.5 that Pocket Guide says I need to cap.
Could you please elaborate a bit for a guy that is not good with numbers?
The guide is referring to the total amount of expertise FROM GEAR that you need.
You have 10 expertise from talents, and need another 15 from gear to expertise cap.
Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.
My question is do I put my faster dagger in my MH with instant poison, and my slow dagger in my OH with deadly? I've heard it said before, but most rogues around my level still have their slow weapon in their MH, and I see mostly lvl 80 rogues with fast mh and slow OH. Not sure what to do, where to put poisons at this point, any clarification would be greatly appreciated.
What you mix up here is that there is no such thing as a 16 Expertise gem per se. One often says "I use 16 Exp gems" or something like that, but it is a mutual understanding that the gem in question is the one granting 16 Expertise Rating and thus only 1.95 Expertise.
You can reduce enemy dodge by 6.5% max, to achieve this you need 6.5/0.25=26 Expertise. You get 10 from talents so you want 16 from Expertise Rating. To get 16 Expertise you would have to equip items with a total of 131.2 Expertise Rating.
What you mix up here is that there is no such thing as a 16 Expertise gem per se. One often says "I use 16 Exp gems" or something like that, but it is a mutual understanding that the gem in question is the one granting 16 Expertise Rating and thus only 1.95 Expertise.
You can reduce enemy dodge by 6.5% max, to achieve this you need 6.5/0.25=26 Expertise. You get 10 from talents so you want 16 from Expertise Rating. To get 16 Expertise you would have to equip items with a total of 131.2 Expertise Rating.
Thank you Thank you Thank you.......a bright light bulb just went on.....Finally I understand...
I have a question regarding lvl 80 training dummys. I'm your standard 51/13/7 mut build and Vulajin's spreadsheet says i should be doing 4k+ dps on all bosses. I have only recently speced mut as i happened to be the only one that could use/want some 25m dagger. I know they are far from the ideal 2x webbed death/paper cutter (and that they are unenchanted). I'm still learning the fine points of Xe/Yr (CttC) but i've got the basics down. I don't understand why I cant go past 2.5k dps on a lvl 80 dummy so I wondering what other people of similar gear are seeing for dps on training dummys as I have yet to be able to do any 25m bosses.
I was coming on to ask the same question. I just got a WD last night so I respecced mutilate with WB MH and KoI in OH, IP on MH DP on OH. I didnt change out my glyphs yet, but I was maintaining around 2300 dps on the target dummy. Another rogue next to me also respecced mutilate that night with dual WD and he was pulling in 2400 on the dummy. We were the only two attacking for most of the time. He had the standard mutilate glyph set up. I fell better knowing that this seems "normal" considering us three are doing around the same damage on a target dummy.
I'm in the same boat as spacewiz. The spreadsheet says i should be doing 4267 DPS with my current gear and i do not come any where near that on bosses (exception to patches where i did 4900). I understand that every fight is situational but most bosses barring a few have little to no movement. Even if i am moving its for 2 seconds (void, Grob fart etc). I too have the sheet set to Xe/Yr (CttC) which i interpret as get S&D up with anythingm 4 CP Envenom, 4CP Rupture, 4CP Envenom. Perhaps this is where the break down is? There is no CttC button so i'd like to think i'm correct? I generally refresh HFB at the 3sec mark and S&D never seem to be an issue. Rupture on the other hand is an issue cause 4CP w/Berserking cannot be refreshed with 4CP w/o berserking.
I do not wish for this to be a "tell me how to play" post but im just confused. Anyone who has the time can look this over too~ Wow Web Stats
The Finishercycle as Mutilate should be oportunity based meaning that you only perform 2 envenoms in a row if you could not "wait and rupture" instead without letting energy cap. So basicly you pull of the second envenom if there is nothing else to do with the CPs and energy.
Concerning DPS on Target Dummies you are most likely all forgetting that the spreadsheet default configuration gives you an almost full set of Buffs and Debuffs only present in a raid setting. Running without them on the dummy will not even allow you to practice the finer points of your rotation as crits and energy will be more abundant in Raids.
This also holds true for bosses. The sheet assumes that not only you, but everyone providing debuffs for you makes no mistakes. Every time Faery Fire drops or a boss is done without Heroism you will thus underperform if said buff is enabled in the sheet. In particular this holds true if buffs are enabled that you simply do not have in your Raid.
My question is do I put my faster dagger in my MH with instant poison, and my slow dagger in my OH with deadly? I've heard it said before, but most rogues around my level still have their slow weapon in their MH, and I see mostly lvl 80 rogues with fast mh and slow OH. Not sure what to do, where to put poisons at this point, any clarification would be greatly appreciated.
My question is do I put my faster dagger in my MH with instant poison, and my slow dagger in my OH with deadly? I've heard it said before, but most rogues around my level still have their slow weapon in their MH, and I see mostly lvl 80 rogues with fast mh and slow OH. Not sure what to do, where to put poisons at this point, any clarification would be greatly appreciated.
Honestly, the best thing you can do for your dps is just to get to 80. Grind quests and get max level and then read the http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/. Doing Sholazar Basin -> Storm Peaks will get you 80 in a few days.
For leveling, spec doesn't really make that much of a difference (I leveled to 80 with my TBC combat raiding build) and these forums aren't really for sub-80 discussion.
To answer your question (which has been answered a dozen times in this thread alone). The faster MH gives you increases instant poison procs due to is proccing off of specials and finishers. The slow offhand is used to build your DP stack for envenoms. Over the course of a fight, the increased IP procs outweigh the loss in MH damage on mutilate. These changes become even more pronounced now with increased haste on SnD, leading to a situation where IP/IP fast/fast with eviscerate as a finisher becomes a very viable option.
Perhaps this information should be more clearly explained in the Pocket Guide to try and stem all of these repeat questions (though I supposed people could just read the thread as well).
Actually if you are just grinind killing mobs that die relatively quickly, I believe your best bet is to put your slower higher dmg wpn in your MH with the faster in the OH (or even better would be slow/slow since after a couple of muts they will be dead anyhow). Now if you are running instances with longer boss fights, fast MH, slow OH is the way to go. The poisons look like they have just changed a bit with IP/IP taking the lead with evisc as the finisher (once again if you are in an instance).
Every time Faery Fire drops or a boss is done without Heroism you will thus underperform if said buff is enabled in the sheet. In particular this holds true if buffs are enabled that you simply do not have in your Raid.
I've been wondering about this? Does the spreadsheet assume a heroism application? If so, is there any way to turn that assumption off in the spreadsheet? The only shammy in our guild...well...he dies a lot and just isn't the best player in the world, so unfortunately he isn't around for our progression runs. Therefore, heroism is a non-factor 90% of the time.
I've been wondering about this? Does the spreadsheet assume a heroism application? If so, is there any way to turn that assumption off in the spreadsheet? The only shammy in our guild...well...he dies a lot and just isn't the best player in the world, so unfortunately he isn't around for our progression runs. Therefore, heroism is a non-factor 90% of the time.
Check the Buffs tab and make sure they're set to your common raid makeup.
Concerning DPS on Target Dummies you are most likely all forgetting that the spreadsheet default configuration gives you an almost full set of Buffs and Debuffs only present in a raid setting. Running without them on the dummy will not even allow you to practice the finer points of your rotation as crits and energy will be more abundant in Raids.
I knew this going into target dummy work. I was just looking for people's DPS with target dummy work. I could preform over 3000 dps on the dummy as Combat, but after last night when I was only doing 2300-2400 as mutialte I was concerned. I wanted to compare to other people's mutilate target dummy dps to see if I was around what others were doing. If anything it proves how much more mutilate synergizes with raid buffs compared to combat.
Last edited by skorpeo : 02/12/09 at 3:31 PM.
Reason: fix quote box
My question is do I put my faster dagger in my MH with instant poison, and my slow dagger in my OH with deadly? I've heard it said before, but most rogues around my level still have their slow weapon in their MH, and I see mostly lvl 80 rogues with fast mh and slow OH. Not sure what to do, where to put poisons at this point, any clarification would be greatly appreciated.
If you are still leveling, why sweat the details? Just get to 80 and start doing what the spreadsheets and conventional wisdom suggest.
I have both Murder and Webbed Death. if i we're to try Mutilate after patch 3.1, is it best to spec it with those daggers or wait till I get a slower/ hard hitting one?
With HFB being much easier to manage I want to try it again.
I have both Murder and Webbed Death. if i we're to try Mutilate after patch 3.1, is it best to spec it with those daggers or wait till I get a slower/ hard hitting one?
With HFB being much easier to manage I want to try it again.
Those daggers are fine. There are no slower daggers, well probably until 3.1 itself, that are better.
Ah, alright, thanks. I was under the impression that the fast MH/slow OH or dual slow mechanics would have still applied.
Dual slow never existed in a pve raid sense. "fast/slow" was not exactly what you aimed for, it was just more of a slow is acceptable in the OH if it's sufficiently better in dps/ilvl than any of the other fast daggers. Initially it was thought SR was sufficiently above, but new models, new patch mechanics has driven that down. Need more of an ilvl gap before you can can equip a slow one now.
Was it ever determined if Mongoose's proc rate was nerfed? Vulajin's spreadsheet hasn't had anything of the sort inputted, and I haven't noticed any mention of it.
Was it ever determined if Mongoose's proc rate was nerfed? Vulajin's spreadsheet hasn't had anything of the sort inputted, and I haven't noticed any mention of it.
Kinda newbish question. I'm new to rogue class and i'm a weak theorycrafter. Recently was testing my (standart muti build) damage on the boss dummy, trying to get the same dps as in spreadsheet for my gear. Was able to get almost the same numbers. Then tried different variations of gear and cycles. Just for fun tried to put LPC (IP) in OH and slower weapon in MH (DP) and used Shiv as CP generator. Used Envenom and Rupture as finishers. Suprisingly was able to get only 50dps lower than usual. Has anyone tried something like this? My damage was something like 33% of white and about 32% IP. Was doing like 500k damage every try unbuffed. Looks fun for me, maybe there was a post about something similar? I'd like to test it a bit more.
02/12/09, 10:59 AM
). I'm still learning the fine points of Xe/Yr (CttC) but i've got the basics down. I don't understand why I cant go past 2.5k dps on a lvl 80 dummy so I wondering what other people of similar gear are seeing for dps on training dummys as I have yet to be able to do any 25m bosses.
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