Scaling poison damage (rather than proc rate) makes it a lot more bursty. Consider the PvP implications of a combat rogue equipping two slow fists and thereby getting massive unmitigated poison burst damage. In the longer term, the two approaches are exactly equivalent. More predictable damage output is in general a good thing for both PvE and PvP.

Hello, first off I am going to apologize, because I am sure these questions have been asked before. What is the rogue physical hit cap and poison hit cap? I really tried searching these but every time I did, the search came back with nothing or some weird error. Thank you very much.

Oh, I was looking at PvP from wrong point of view then.
Firstly I considered IP/DP (or IP/WP, or IP/IP) Mutilate build with Deadly Brew and slow weapons. Scaling poison damage would buff IP damage by like 1.8/1,4 leaving chances to cripple at the same level. Scaling proc rate do the same with IP damage (in the longer term), but also makes Cripple Poison applying much more often.
But since I suck at PvP and know almost nothing about it I wouldn't be surprised if I failed badly here.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/ Front page, first post, no searching or lame excuses required.

2 questions. When I have 4 to 7 seconds left on my rupture, and have plenty of time on my snd/hfb, should I pull my energy and wait for rupture to get to 1 second? Or should I envenom and get rupture back up asap?

When is the best time to pull energy? Cause everytime I do I watch my dps slowly trickle down.

If you have an addon to show "current DPS" through some sort of moving line graph, ignore it. It's basically just averaging the last few seconds and when I've tried them out I can watch my DPS swing between 900 and 10K DPS.

Generally when I pool energy, other players may do differently:
When Envenom is your next ability to use and you still have time on the last Envenom buff such that if the previous Envenom buff is left to tick off you will have <=85 energy.
When Rupture is your next ability to use and both the time left on the previous Rupture and your energy available is such that if the previous Rupture is left to tick off you will have <=85 energy.

In practical terms, pool when
(Time left on buff/debuff * 12) + Energy <= 85

Thanks for the response guys. Ya, I use recount. I just find myself constantly stuck at 4cp's with HFB/SND at 13 to 15 seconds, rupture at 4 secs, and 30 to 40 energy wondering wtf should I do haha. Thing is that I hardly ever have 5 cp's. Mostly 4 because I either get the extra cp from finishers and mutilate crits for 3. Or no cp for finisher and 2 mutilates put me at 4.

Spreadsheet shows 2/5/4 best rotation for me using WP/WP Evisc and evisc/rupture/SS glyphs. I am thinking about running 3/5/5 just to be safe on unlucky SS/Ruth procs but I was curious if most would recommend running SnD instead of evisc glyph. It shows ~3 dps downgrade for me but once again, considering rotations aren't static, could it be a safer choice?

Edit: Just realized 2/5/4 isn't possible without the snd glyph...Still curious if most would run 3/5/5 SnD glpyh or 4/5/5 with evisc in snd's place. The difference is 3dps but I wonder if one could be more well rounded.

Im still confused about finding what cycle is optimal.

Xs/Yr appears to be best on the spreadsheet but on the cycles tab thers a bunch of info I dont understand.

What is Xs/Yr? Please help me understand how to utilize this part of the spreadsheet.

Im horribly disappointed by my raiding dps. I had superior dps in BC and now in mid pack at best.

Ive also noticed the spreadsheet is telling me 32AP is better than 16Agi. I thought agility was better.

Xs/Yr is X number of combo points for a SnD finisher and Y number of combo points for Rupture finisher.
If you have the SnD and Rupture Glyphs, then most likely some variation of Xs/Yr/Ze would be best, where E is either Envenom or Eviscerate, you will determine which by answering true or false in the appropriate box. Are you saying your dps has gotten worse since BC? That shouldn't be possible unless you're doing something horribly wrong. But if you're saying that you're nolonger number 1 on the dps charts, then that is understandable and is just the way things are at this moment in the game.
The EP values Aldriana posted way back were for a certain level of gear. Not everyone has that level of gear, and EP values are different for everyone. As your gear improves I would expect AGI's EP value to increase and eventually the 16agi gems would become better than the 32 ap ones.

Thank you for the reply.

I currently usually do 2s/5r/3-5 eviserate

You are correct, my dps isnt actually worse than it was in kara, I just am not top dps in the group anymore.
Im regularly in the 5-10 spot.

Thanks again.

Okay so here is my problem.. I am Mut spec.. I have LPC main hand with Instant poison . Titansteele shanker OH with deadly.

I am Using the spreadsheet and Switching my OH dagger to another LPC results in a 17 DPS loss compared to keeping the titansteel shanker in my OH.

Now everything i read says that Fast/fast is the best and that LPC is the best before naxx drops.. So is there something that i am missing that will make up for the the 17 DPS loss using twin LPC or is using LPC (MH) and Shanker (oh) with the 17 plus DPS really better as the spreadsheet says?

ON the same note, is it ever acceptable to have a 1.8 speed dagger in MH to replace my LPC? Say something like Anrachy or Knife of incision?

thanks again, and sorry for lack of links on the named items.. really have no clue how to do that.

thank you agian and any input is welcome and appreciated.

Firstly, bear in mind many things will changes when patch 3.1 comes, in case you're planning to spend a load of gold or DKP. Though the patch might not be for a couple of months so grab an upgrade now if you think you'll get good use out of it.

Secondly, bear in mind that many things have changed since patch 3.0.2 came. So some of the advice you've read might be outdated now.

In general, trust the current spreadsheet. If it says Shanker > LPC given your unique gear, buffs, etc then it likely is true.

You didn't mention what poisons you are using. If you have Deadly Poison on the offhand, the Shanker can probably maintain a full stack no problems, hence you don't gain much poison damage by going with the faster LPC, hence the higher damage (and better stats) of the Shanker are what move it ahead for you.

Of course it can be acceptable to wield a 1.8 dagger MH. If the spreadsheet says it's more DPS to do so then do so. Slower MH will be better for FoK spam on trash. Or bigger burst from Mutilates in PvP.

PS to link, enclose an item name in [] tags, item as the opening tag and /item as the closing tag e.g. [item]

Mongoose is a decent economy alternative to Berserker. I use it on my dual LPCs and the spreadsheet says it gives me dps second only to Beserker. Once you have Naxx level weapons, you'll probably want to get the money and mats together for the upgrade, but using 'goose in the mean time is fine.

Fast/Fast is currently best (subject to change in 3.1) in most cases at raiding level.
This is because all the daggers (Naxx10 @ 143dps, Naxx25 @ 156dps) have very similar stats, and in that case faster wins out.
Twin LPC's are much more effective when using IIV (Instant Poison on both hands, with someone else providing the poison debuff, with Eviscerate as finisher).
Depending on gear Twin LPC may be superior to all other daggers with the exception of Webbed Death and Murder. Yes that includes Sinister Revenge and Anarchy.

So yes, picking up two LPC's is probably the best pre-raid weapon choice for rogues currently. YMMV, consult latest spreadsheet to be certain. Be sure to experiment with IP/IP vs IP/DP.

However, this will change in 3.1 where slower daggers become viable due to the way poison procs work.
More information on this is available in various threads. Browse around~!

this might not be the right place to post this.. but..

has anyone ever thought that a faster weapon in the main hand will do better dps than a slow one?

i am currently equiped with hatestrike ([Hatestrike]) on the main hand and avool's sword of jin in the off hand ([Avool's Sword of Jin]), both of them mongoosed.. and i saw my damage meters go up the scale.. being bested only by mages..

i run just one test though.. so this isn't realy proved.. but i'm sticking with the two fast weapons...

my previous weapon was [Reaper of Dark Souls] which might be the case of lesser dps overal.. but.. what if faster small amounts of damage are proved to be better in the end..

Okay, can we stop this line of inquiry now? Yes, fast MHs can be better than slow ones. This has been discussed in several different threads recently, including one thread devoted to nothing else. So: search and read, and you will find your answer.

More to the point, even if a fast MH is better (for Combat) now, it will not be in the next patch, owing to the normalisation of poison procs. There is only very limited value in theorycrafting an extra 50 DPS for the last few weeks of Naxx boss farming.

I had a couple quick questions that I am a bit unsure on.

1- Where is the best place to have trinket activations in a macro? I'm using [Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood] and [Loatheb's Shadow] and have them both bound to my envenom macro so that I have my +AP buff while the envenom buff is active(and since I often pool before envenom to get in 2 mutilates). Is this optimal or should I manually bind both trinkets to a single key to activate them with more precision? My current thinking is that I will likely end up leaving the trinkets up on cooldown too often if manually bound to a key.

2- I often get into a situation where I have 4 CPs on a mob and I have plenty of rupture/HfB/S&D time after pooling energy. Do I want to envenom in this spot, or throw in another mutilate to get a 5-pt envenom/rupture?


Thanks for the help, and I do apologize if this has been answered in another post.

I tend to place on use trinkets in my primary attack (Mutilate or Sinister Strike), though that may not be optimal. It does, however, ensure maximum uptime (for me).

At 4 CPs, do not Mutilate again. If you still have the Envenom buff up, pool energy. If the Envenom buff is down, pool energy for a few seconds (but do not cap) until you can Envenom and Mutilate immediately/shortly after. This should also ensure that you have maximum DP stacks when you Envenom.

when running vulijin's spread sheet webbed death MH, and Sinister Revenge OH showed more dps then webbed death/murder. on my own epic test dummy runs, it showed the same thing. however on test runs, If I switched to SR MH, Murder OH, Mutt hit allot harder... since bosses dont stand still like test dummies would it be better in Raids to have mutt hit harder? I'm thinking this since spreadsheets are based on optimum situations in melee friendly fights, but since the majority of raid bosses are not melee friendly, maybee the answer ( if your lucky enough to have all 3 daggers) is on bosses like patch and leotheb go WD MH/ SR OH, and on fight were you're not able to be in melee range 100% of the time go SR MH / Murder OH ??