Your biggest problem at the moment is that you're not Hit Capped.

Check http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/ for the numbers

The guide was updated with new values when the models improved. The EP values listed in the Pocket Guide are the ones currently believed to be more accurate.

Alright, IP/IP and using Eviscerate as your finisher is best for dps atm right?

I've had people ingame telling me otherwise, but the spreadsheet shows a 100 dps increase over using IP/DP.

So what is it?

Depends on your gear. They are similar.

in-game tells aren't where you usually find the well-informed people. Your Spreadsheet is correct, but IIV is only the superior spec in very specific situations. You are no longer providing the poison debuff, so you are dependent on it coming from someone else, namely a hunter or another rogue not specced IIV (good luck convincing him to do less DPS and help you do more). This means that as your group gets smaller the chances of that other poison provider is less and less. It also makes your rotation even tighter to maintain.

With all that, quite a few rogues have stopped speccing that way, mainly for the sake of consistency from group to group.

On top of all that, that build has just been dealt a killing blow with the recent Envenom Glyph, so I suggest just going back to the regular IDN spec.

What do the IIV and IDN / IDN* builds stand for? Can I get a link to them?

I'm NOT leaping on you here so please no defensive posting.

If going by the spreadsheet Agi>Hit etc forcing hit results in a DPS loss. Should this then be taken with a pinch of salt (say maybe due to the fact that there's some unachieveable perfection the spreadsheet models that results in hit being a slightly more productive stat in "real life" than the sheet paints it as?)

I'm currently weighing in at around 162 hit gonna spend a while checking some other combat rogues in here, see if i'm missing something.

I appreciate hit/expertise stabilise dps cycles which is obviously something thats tricky for a number bashing machine to emulate but would more at the expense of AP/Agi help me?

If you're combat hit/exp factors less into cycle stability. That talk is more for Mutilate due to CttC, and Combat having Surprise Attacks. You just only have to be over the specials cap.

And the spreadsheet probably models hit as good as it gets. Hit is best with white damage, uninterrupted Patchwerk-esque tank and spank white damage where you can get the most out of it, and subsequent procs. Which is exactly what the spreadsheet is modelling. In "real life" you often can't do that. There are periods you have to stop.

I'm personally sitting at 313 hit, and that wasn't a conscious decision. It just happened to fall there while getting the best gear I can get.

i am a lvl 80 troll rogue and am having prob putting up the dps numbers. my rotation for dps is 2 mut sld 2mut rup 2 mut env and i cant figure out why i dont do massive numbers. if you want to look at my gear you can armory me and see but i have great gear i just cant understand it. if anybody could help i would appreciate it.

I'm trying to dig through the trove of information here and needless to say I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed.

As with most rogues I'm feeling a bit frustrated with the DPS I put out, even against similarly equipped piers. I've tried several different builds & tweaks: Assassination using both Envenom and Eviscerate specs, Combat using both Dagger/Fists and Swords. Hitting the "boss" target dummy (In any of the above specs just using poisons and abilities and otherwise not buffed or using CDs) I'm unable to top 2K DPS, in fact I average anywhere from 1.6K to 1.8K give or take some change of course. In raids I'm able to maintain 3.2K pretty consistently, again give or take a couple/three hundred depending on what build I bring in.

I guess my most basic question is, am I on the bubble? I have a hard time believing I'm doing UBER DPS, but more that I'm lower than I should be. I'm completely willing to do whatever I have to in order to raise my DPS up. Thanks ahead for any input.

Hi Hash-sha-shin

I would recomend you read thru the pocketguide to wotlk and as you specced mutilate also the thread focused on that subject. Alot of great rogues post easy to use tips of talents, gear etc there. But in short there is some easy changes you could do to in short terms gain some dps.

Your Talents is not optimal specced. As mutilate you have no real need of agression in combat, the gain of increased Eviciate is inferior especialy as the eviciate ip ip specc looking as it about to die in 3.1 with enevenom glyph. Personaly I would recomend you take those 3 points out.

What you really would benefit untill 3.1 hit and "mabye" there will be more optimal placement of talents (not 100% convinced yet and ptr is no stable platform atm) is to put 5 points in relentless strikes. for this you also need to drop 2 points in close quarters combat but its worth it I would say. Also im no big fan of quick recovery, better try get your expertice up as this have a major inpact on your dps among other as you might get missed snd's due to dodged enevenoms etc. I would put those 2 points into Blood splatter as you shuld use rupture, this have been discussed in various threads but most of the mats shower rupture have a place in a mutilate rotation.

Hope this helped and go read in those threads. Note my tips is from personal experience mostly and there might be ppl dissagree on some points with me.

Yes. Precision doesn't appear on the screen. Expertise does.

As a spec on live, 51/18/2 isn't where you should be. You should be working rupture into your rotations, placing the points from Quick recovery into Blood Spatter would be better. Also, assuming you're not running the IIV spec you should have the three points of imp evis in focused attacks (you really should have FA). RS in the sub tree is going to give you a lot more cycle stability and extra energy for mutilates, which combined with FA will net you a greater amount of mutilates and finishers than you're probably currently doing.

As per the pocket guide, icewalker on the boots (and enchanting your bracers) will help. Berserking is better than mongoose, and with BiS daggers there really isn't much reason to go with mongoose. Add a glyph to your headpiece. You only need one blue gem to activate the meta, any further blue gems (even with socket bonus) are going to be a dps loss over straight up AP/Agi.

Perhaps the greatest point here is, you are 18 expertise below cap. At that level, expertise is the greatest EP to gem for, until you hit the cap. So ideally you would gem exclusively for expertise.

Is this the correct build for IIV? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I have started using IIV build some time ago, and I noticed that from time to time I don't have enough energy to keep the full 5r/5v cycle. To not let S&D drop I am forced to do 3p Eviscerate in such cases. I am wondering how bad is that for overall DPS, and if it would not be better to try to skip 1 Rupture instead?
So instead of going 5v/5r/3v/5r/5v... it would be 5v/5v/5r/5v...
I do have the S&D glyph.

Actually, similar situation happens at the very start of combat if I open with 3p S&D. I have a choice of going for 5p Rupture first and then 3p Eviscerate, or just postpone Rupture for the next cycle.
I guess for the opening I could also start with 3s/3r/5v/5r, but for the first question I do not see I am short of energy early enough to shorten Rupture. Usually I start getting worried when I already have 5cp and Rupture is the next finisher in line.

At the start of an encounter you could open with a garrote followed by a 1p SnD. After this I personally prefer to build combopoints with 2 mutilates before throwing up a new 4-5 CP SnD. This will delay your first rupture, but I personally do feel that it's worth those few extra seconds at the start of an encounter to achieve higher stability with my rotation.

edit: And a question regarding your rotation overall since you feel that it tend to break down from time to time. When you are about to renew your SnD by using eviscerate, do you allow the SnD buff to clip? That is do you use eviscerate as soon as you got enough combopoints, or do you wait for the SnD timer to run low while pooling energy?

I'm not the best expert you will find on this board, but I did play the spec myself for a 3 weeks or so, and I know the rotation is tighter than the "normal" IDN spec if you leave out ruthlessness like alot of people do. But with proper energy pooling majority of the encounters were not really a problem.

The bug has been fixed, which means you should use IP on your MH and DP on the off, since you can procc IP on your finishers.

Do not Mutilate to 5CP; and before you ask, no, do not Shiv that last CP if you're at 4.

Mutilate until you have 4 or more CP, just like it has always said in the Pocket Guide. The reason you don't have enough energy to keep up your cycle is because you're wasting an obscene amount on mutilates that are both unnecessary and recently nerfed. At your gear level you should be able to easily Envenom 2 or 3 times before your last Rupture expires.

a few things i quickly noticed...

- your standard rotation of 2 x Mut - SnD - 2 x Mut - Rupture - 2 x Mut - Env isn't always the best move. you don't have to wait for 4 CP's before you SnD initially. you should find you're able to start off with a 2-3 pt. SnD. and you should be able to fit at least 2 Envenoms in before it's time for another Rupture. the Mut cycle is fluid. what needs to be done next depends on several factors. and i assume you've got 3 HfB's up before you even start your cycle.

- you're far from Expertise capped. the cap is 214 (a 26/26 rating).

you can gather a lot of useful information from the Pocket Guide. i highly recommend using it.

I'm a level 80 undead rogue and am looking for some extra eyes to see what I can improve upon. I need to bring better DPS to the guild to stay in raids and after switching from Mut to Combat, it seems I have upped my DPS but judging from other WWS, there is still a lot I can do. Here is my armory info. I've reduced my hit and gemmed for attack power, haste and critical strike while trying to take advantage of misery. My glyphs are AR, SS, and Rupture. Also - here is a link to my last full Naxx run.

I know I need to use WP/WP on my swords. And from looking at the wws, believe I need to make sure Rupture is up as well. On a typical boss, I SS a couple times to get SnD going, then SS to Rupture, and fill in with Eviscerates when SnD and Rupture have plenty of time still ticking away. I also try to use AR to throw in more SS and Evisc. and use KS as a filler to get my energy back.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

You have 4 Blue gems. That's 3 too many. Ditch them.
AP/Crit (Wicked) is likely better than AP/Haste (I didn't actually check your gear in my sheet).
Your weapon enchants are terrible, and you have a useless tradeskill (Herbalism).
You're also over the expertise cap, and you'd be better off with Dawnwalkers or Sinner's Bindings, since you don't have Stalk-Skin.

Your spec is perfect, and the only real concern I see on your gear is an excess of blue gems and an odd enchant on your main hand. Otherwise, you're not in bad shape at all.

What kind of cycle are you trying to maintain?