Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 86

patcherke · 03/16/09, 9:16 AM

Maybe this question isn’t so simple, and the answer will probably be neither, but here it goes anyway.

Currently we are trying Sartharion + 3 drakes, and we are trying to maximize DPS to get the first drake down as soon as possible.

Before the first drake lands I am able to get a full stack of combo points on Sartharion himself, but I also trigger the cooldowns of 1 or both of my trinkets (I have Mirror Of Truth and Grim Toll at the moment, both of which are trinkets with a proc chance )

My question is what is the best move to do here?

1. Build up the combo points, so that I can have a SnD running straight from the start when engaging the first drake, and not waste energy on that for half of the duration between drake 1 and 2 (5pt SnD last 35 seconds or something like that)
2. Or doing no DPS at Sartharion, and save the proc of the trinkets for the drake fight itself, but having to spend energy on building up combo points for SnD.

Or in other words: trinket procs vs SnD energy.

trrdr · 03/16/09, 11:18 AM

The problem with Tenebron is, you will have to move as soon as he becomes attackable because of the first lava wave. Your trinket(s) will probably proc within the first ~3 seconds of attacking him, so even though you saved the procs from Sartharion, you won't get the full benefit out of them because it is unlikely you will be able to go full out DPS on Tenebron during the first wave.

I always get 5 CPs on Sarth and TotT the MT in the process, which incidentally also helps with my guilds problem of trigger happy DDs - the few raids where we didn't have a rogue (because I had to tank with an alt) someone almost always pulled aggro, which is an incredibly stupid thing to do, but apparently you get used to giving all you have 1-2 seconds after the pull when you have rogues tricking the MT on every boss.

Since the obvious trinket choices for rogues all have a 45 sec internal cd on procs (correct me if I'm wrong), you will get the proc roughly 15-20 seconds after engaging Tenebron (if you hit Sartharion with TotT as soon as he moved towards the MT after hunter MD), so until Shadron lands you will have enough time to make full use of their effects.

patcherke · 03/16/09, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by trrdr

Since the obvious trinket choices for rogues all have a 45 sec internal cd on procs (correct me if I'm wrong), you will get the proc roughly 15-20 seconds after engaging Tenebron (if you hit Sartharion with TotT as soon as he moved towards the MT after hunter MD), so until Shadron lands you will have enough time to make full use of their effects.

If the fight against Tenebron lasts for more than 45 seconds (which is particularly the case, because shorter fights have enough DPS already) you can have a 2nd trinket proc in the second case.
And the question actually remains the same : will the damage gain of more finishers outweigh the trinket proc loss (even if it is a diminished return)

I think it does, especially if Heroism (which is most of the times launched after 10-15 seconds) is available, which will make your trinket proc of case 1 fall in that heroism timeframe (and giving it an increased value), while the first proc in case 2 will not be in that timeframe.

+ A second proc in case 1 (after about 70s) is not that utopique as well, I guess. (Especially compared to a 3rd proc in case 2 (The Tenebron phase shouldn't last more than 90s))

But I guess we need some maths to prove our point.

PessimiStick · 03/16/09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by trrdr

The problem with Tenebron is, you will have to move as soon as he becomes attackable because of the first lava wave. Your trinket(s) will probably proc within the first ~3 seconds of attacking him, so even though you saved the procs from Sartharion, you won't get the full benefit out of them because it is unlikely you will be able to go full out DPS on Tenebron during the first wave.

If you don't have 100% DPS time on the drakes, there's something wrong with your strat. Your tank isn't eating waves, which means you can still be attacking. It takes long enough for Tenebron to become attackable from the time Sarth is pulled that your trinkets would mostly be off CD anyway, so I'd imagine that going in with a fresh SnD would be the best option. That's how I play it personally.

Loot · 03/16/09, 12:46 PM

IMHO you should not use hero on first drake, save for 2nd one as his aura really hurts. As long as you can kill first without hatching twice you are good. I have no idea about trinket or finishers is better, but the most important during the fight is to have 0 seconds offtarget when drake is attackable. I'm unsure how if trrdr means to move away from the drake with "The problem with Tenebron is, you will have to move as soon as he becomes attackable because of the first lava wave" but you should stay sticked to the drake all the time.

Tinwhisker · 03/16/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Loot

IMHO you should not use hero on first drake, save for 2nd one as his aura really hurts. As long as you can kill first without hatching twice you are good.

This is also our strategy. As for TotT the main tank and building CPs on Sarth, we don't bother. Standing rule since we started is "No DPS on Sarth until the third drake is down." There is absolutely zero reason to hit him before the drakes are dead.

Get the first drake down before a second hatch, clean up adds, blow heroism on the second drake, take the portal, kill the third drake, portal again, dance party, and collect loot.

trrdr · 03/16/09, 1:17 PM

I personally have 100% DPS time on Tenebron and Shadron, but it took some time to get our drake tank to position Tenebron correctly if the first wave comes from the right, thus forcing us in the lava. (That's where that comment came from - problem with our drake tank while learning, we had a lot of times where melee DPS had to move in front of the drakes so they didn't eat a wave) Since patcherke said that they are still learning the encounter with 3 drakes up, I just pointed out one problem our melee dps faced at that point.

I admit that I didn't think of the Tenebron fight lasting significantly longer than ~55 seconds, since we had Tenebron down three seconds after Shadron became attackable at the latest in our last kills and if you are a lot slower, you probably won't be able to beat the encounter with your current DPS.

The problem with learning S3D is the randomness of the lava waves and the most DPS is lost when ranged has to move a lot. Melee can deal more easily with moving around all the time without losing any DPS at all if they (and the drake tank

) know the encounter well enough. I don't know your raid lineup, but it's a lot harder to optimize melee dps as opposed to get the ranged to move as little as possible and maximize their dps time.

Well, back to the topic. I still think having a 5 point SnD ready for Tenebron outweighs the gains of another round of trinket procs towards the end of Tenebron's life. In our last kill I was able to get out three or four (can't verify due to lack of WWS log) full 5 point eviscerates on Tenebron with AR while the initial SnD and Rupture were up.

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Get the first drake down before a second hatch, clean up adds, blow heroism on the second drake, take the portal, kill the third drake, portal again, dance party, and collect loot.

Exactly the way we do it.

Brejn3v · 03/16/09, 1:23 PM

Can you guys help me with this problem i guess i think i have... This is my char. I allways keep HfB and SnD up, and Rupture let's say 98% of the time. I always self buff in raids with +40 hit food and Flask of Endless Rage, and full raid buffed. I use IP on mh, and DP on oh. Thought i have the feeling i'm not output the dps that i should. My dps is around 3.8k, never over 4k barrier (except Thaddius and Loatheb). Little tips with what i could do wrong ?

Nerevarine · 03/16/09, 1:59 PM

you will get more benefit if you take AP or Agi food, since you are way over the Poison Cap. In Case you don't already watch your Envenom Buff do it

Second point is, your Expertise is very low, which means your special attacks are dodged more often, consider some Experise gems, for example in exchange for the 2nd blue gem which is not needed for the new Meta Gem. The blue gem in the legs should also be replaced.

Your cycle should be Mut | Snd | Mut to 4/5 | Rupture | Mut to 4/5 | Envenom | Mut to 4/5 ...

If you can get your Hands on more Expertise you can easily do a Rupture | Envenom | Envenom Rotation. Also since there are not many murderable mobs and you lack exp take Quick Recovery instead of Murder.

Exodist · 03/16/09, 2:52 PM

Little confused on the Poison hit cap. I was under the impression that it was 5% against another level 80 mob, then around 8% against a level 83/boss NPC.
But when referencing The Pocket Guide it list 315Hit Raiting w/ 5/5 Presicion (14.61% overall).
So this leaves me little confused as its hard to find a solid number for this.

--EDIT--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Darkside,
Thank you. So its 17% or 445.94HR untalented or 314.78 with Precision. Sweet TY.

• Darkside · 03/16/09, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Exodist

Little confused on the Poison hit cap. I was under the impression that it was 5% against another level 80 mob, then around 8% against a level 83/boss NPC.
But when referencing The Pocket Guide it list 315Hit Raiting w/ 5/5 Presicion (14.61% overall).
So this leaves me little confused as its hard to find a solid number for this.

Poisons are affected by the spell hit cap, not the melee.

Kryptyx · 03/16/09, 3:44 PM

I've been getting a little confused with the 3.1 changes and what remains to be the "top spec" between Mute and Combat... Currently I'm mute and since the other rogues in my guild are Combat I was able to grab 2 WD's and then a SR last night. I know my hit and expertise are a little low and my helm is pathedic, KT does not want to drop a Vanquisher Helm for me in 10 or 25

I have been testing simulation craft which puts Mute above Combat but at the same time I look at parses of PTR's Ulduar Patchwerk tests and Combat is far ahead of Mute... This I assume is due to the poison bug - has this been fixed yet or is combat just better come 3.1?

saedo · 03/16/09, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kryptyx

I have been testing simulation craft which puts Mute above Combat but at the same time I look at parses of PTR's Ulduar Patchwerk tests and Combat is far ahead of Mute... This I assume is due to the poison bug - has this been fixed yet or is combat just better come 3.1?

Nothing's been fixed and I believe none of the good glyphs are even out to test.

Solarion · 03/16/09, 4:33 PM

I've been playing a rogue for years, and have not deviated much from standard SnD/Rupture/Evis cycles for years. I have never used Envenom.

Can someone post the quick version of when to use Envenom instead of Eviscerate as a PvE combat build to maximize my DPS? I currently use WP/IP for convinence, but I assume I would need to go WP/DP to make full use of Envenom.

saedo · 03/16/09, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Solarion

I've been playing a rogue for years, and have not deviated much from standard SnD/Rupture/Evis cycles for years. I have never used Envenom.

Can someone post the quick version of when to use Envenom instead of Eviscerate as a PvE combat build to maximize my DPS? I currently use WP/IP for convinence, but I assume I would need to go WP/DP to make full use of Envenom.

Never. Except maybe the last few seconds of a fight. But combat rogues nowadays go dual WP.

Armanewb · 03/16/09, 4:57 PM

Assuming you are a CQC combat spec, then dual wound is better than WP/IP (for that matter i believe WP/DP is better as well). You shouldn't ever be using envenom.

saedo · 03/16/09, 5:01 PM

Dual WP or WP/DP depending on gear level

Edit: Sorry, misread the prev comment.

Synnove · 03/16/09, 7:50 PM

Simple-sounding question, but difficult for me to figure out so far.

I've always played combat, and that used to always be the "right" PvE choice, not anymore. So here's my question:

For a sword rogue in PvE what is the most raid-efficient spec? (pref. not muti, but I will go for such if it'll help my dps that much)

Oh and does MN really work on KT hc? Tried several times, didn't look like it was working, but my guild insisted "just to make sure" :].

ShadowEric · 03/16/09, 8:09 PM

Mutilate requires daggers, so a "sword rogue" cannot be mutilate.

Perhaps my brain shut down today, but what is MN, KT and hc?

Synnove · 03/16/09, 8:13 PM

^ Oh snap, that shows how much I know of Muti :P

MN - Mindnumbing
KT - Kel'thuzad
HC - Heroic

Maaras · 03/16/09, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by Synnove

Oh and does MN really work on KT hc? Tried several times, didn't look like it was working, but my guild insisted "just to make sure" :].

I don't know whether MN works on KT or not, but if you and all of the warriors/shaman/other rogues in your raid can't manage to kick 90% or more of the frostbolts cast by KT, then your raid leader has bigger issues than whether or not MN works. Stick with your damage poisons.

Armanewb · 03/16/09, 9:43 PM

It does not. Shamans work best for KT interrupts anyway, but I usually have a kick rotation with the tank to be safe.

Marieth · 03/17/09, 5:53 AM

Mind Numbing never worked on Kel, besides Essence of Souls I can not remeber any boss where it worked.
But since you have probably more then one melee camp on kel, let each of them make a kick rotation. Any combination of warrior/rogue/dk/enh.shaman can interrupt 95% of all frostbolts.
And if I were you, I would not think about the right spec, before you fix your gear. S1 weapons at 80, dear god what are you thinking.

patcherke · 03/17/09, 6:53 AM

Originally Posted by trrdr

I personally have 100% DPS time on Tenebron and Shadron, but it took some time to get our drake tank to position Tenebron correctly if the first wave comes from the right, thus forcing us in the lava. (That's where that comment came from - problem with our drake tank while learning, we had a lot of times where melee DPS had to move in front of the drakes so they didn't eat a wave) Since patcherke said that they are still learning the encounter with 3 drakes up, I just pointed out one problem our melee dps faced at that point.

I admit that I didn't think of the Tenebron fight lasting significantly longer than ~55 seconds, since we had Tenebron down three seconds after Shadron became attackable at the latest in our last kills and if you are a lot slower, you probably won't be able to beat the encounter with your current DPS.

The problem with learning S3D is the randomness of the lava waves and the most DPS is lost when ranged has to move a lot. Melee can deal more easily with moving around all the time without losing any DPS at all if they (and the drake tank

) know the encounter well enough. I don't know your raid lineup, but it's a lot harder to optimize melee dps as opposed to get the ranged to move as little as possible and maximize their dps time.

Well, back to the topic. I still think having a 5 point SnD ready for Tenebron outweighs the gains of another round of trinket procs towards the end of Tenebron's life. In our last kill I was able to get out three or four (can't verify due to lack of WWS log) full 5 point eviscerates on Tenebron with AR while the initial SnD and Rupture were up.

Exactly the way we do it.

Our best attempts so far is killing Tenebron at the moment Shadron became attackable. but that is with Heroism used on the first drake. (which gives us the best results until now)
We are still working on not needing the heroism at that time.

Getting 100% on target time was impossible for melee so far because for some odd reason, the fissures seem to target us like hell (sometimes even 2 fissures right next to each other) and we still lose dps in fissures now and then (that is getting better though)
I did have trouble with the fissure in our first few attempt because I couldn't see them (adjusting spell detail did help though) but right now I don't have trouble with it anymore.
My main concern at this moment is maximizing time on target and maximizing dps there.

As for the tank : maybe he can stand somewhere else. He normally starts at the south side, at the spot between the lava waves when they come from the south (left).
For me it looks like we are losing 3-5 seconds there, as the drake has got to move towards his spot (as he lands to the north), and when there is a lava wave from the north, we lose even more time with moving in.

Any thoughts about this?

As for total DPS maybe being not enough : what is a guideline in order of dps to get a kill with reasonable difficulty?
(ie. 3k/person average, or more like 4k?)

Len · 03/17/09, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by patcherke

As for total DPS maybe being not enough : what is a guideline in order of dps to get a kill with reasonable difficulty?
(ie. 3k/person average, or more like 4k?)

There's good thread full of sound advice and different tactics at Public Discussion.

As for the dps, 3k average should be ok, our last 3d 25man shows me on anesthetic duty.