Loot

You still have to be at 100% mele range no matter the fissures. After all you can attack the drake from every direction be that from the front too - CloS and go there if you fear breathing and you absolutely can't be at the back. Upon lava wave, if the tank tanks it at the edge then you are fighting from somewhat front standing on the very edge too (no need to dip in the lava).
The pull - you ToTT the MT and and start hitting it from the very second it becomes attackable, no need to wait till it reaches the tank (tbh tank needs to tank him where he lands)

 

trrdr

Another thing that just struck me while looking at Len's report: try with less healers if it's possible. In Len's report they had 8 healers and 43000 raid dps, our last logged kill shows us with 6 healers and 52000 raid dps. (And I reckon it can be done pretty easily with 5 healers, since two of ours had one disconnect after another that night - that's where those wipes came from)

Regarding anesthetic: our log shows me with ap on my oh, but I've since switched to a weapon switch + FoK macro with dual anesthetic on two extra weapons, because it just makes a lot more sense. There is no reason losing personal dps over the possible need to derage blazes when you can just hit your macro while making your way to the enraged blazes. (Plural because if it's just one: let the hunters deal with it)

 

Spookydookie

I'm relatively certain that there is nothing set wrong on my spreadsheet. When i did the initial check to find out if gemming for hit would be an upgrade, I tested both gem set-ups with no buffs (aside from my own...food, flask, etc) and then again with the buffs that I would be getting in the raid.
In both cases gemming for ANY Hit Rating (be it with +16hit or +8hit/+16ap) was a negative change in my projected damage.

I noted your mention of the poison misses and took that into consideration with my test of the gems, but the envenom "misses" were actually dodges/parries so have no relevance to my initial question.

I've noticed (on the spreadsheet once again) that my benefit from hit drops off steeply after I gem over the special cap in pretty much every buff situation...so I am once again left with my original question...
should i be trusting the spreadsheet over common sense and/or the pocket guide?

Also, no the other rogue in that run was not my mentor but that's irrelevant. I also don't see how it's easier for a combat rogue to get hit rating as you claim.

 

Krollin

The spreadsheet is a good guide to how you should be gearing, you can trust it alright.

Couple of points though: your hit, while low, is not disastrously so as long as you are using +40 hit rating food and are getting Misery + Draenei hit bonus.

Your weapons are a cause for concern: unless you have better you should get an LPC and use that in your OH, switch Omen of Ruin to you MH and not use Twilight Mist. (I am assuming that your Armory is showing the gear you use in Raids here though). You should be using at least Mongoose on them and not +50 AP too. Berserker or Accuracy on either of those weapons would be a waste with 3.1 coming up.

 

Synnove

Ty for the info on Kel, but I'll still use kick, even if there are other interrupters, if it doesn't harm my rotation, I don't see why not.

I'm fixing that quite quickly, good weapons are not too easy to come by though, I'm only going for swords, twice hailstorm hasn't dropped, several times bosses haven't dropped theirs and the same goes for HCs. One'll be coming with my soon-to-be improved rep with Ebon Blade. The rest of my gear's quickly been upgraded, got a neck and helm last night which are nice when they update.

Spec still matters, either way, even if so that I can just learn to adjust into it pre-it being effective.

Infraction for unclarity ftl |:

 

Iscis

My apologies on the hit rating for Combat comment. I had expertise on the brain. Let's just forget that part.

If your poisons are being dodged that much, it is an indicator that you need to up your expertise, but as you said, that was not your original question. (The parries would be greatly reduced by working to get behind your target more often, but that's often easier said than done on some bosses.)

Specifically for the hit issue, the value will drop off after you reach the specials threshold, and again after the poison cap. And buffs will work in your favor. With ~100 hit, plus 40 from food, Heroic Presence and Misery/ImpFF, you're going to be about 70 under the poison cap. It's not huge, but I would think it would be noticable.

When it's all said and done, however, the question remains: If you are getting conflicting information between the spreadsheet and the Pocket Guide, trust your experience. If your logs show you are getting more dps by gemming AP instead of trying to reach the poison hit cap, then gem AP. (Or check out expertise.) As all of the tools and guides here are written to be somewhat generic, your particular gear, talents, rotation, etc may mean some of these tools don't agree with each other or your experience 100% of the time. And if you're going to trust one of these tools over the others, I would go with the spreadsheet. By inputting your specific gear, talents, etc into the spreadsheet, it has a decided advantage over the more generic Pocket Guide.


Edit: I just looked again and you're up to almost 180 base +hit. In that case, food plus raid buffs will push you over the poison cap. I imagine you'll have fewer comments from your mentor now. Hopefully you'll see an improvement in you dps, too. (Something we all strive towards.)

 

Warbz

Forgive me for I have been away for a bit - with the looks of new PPM on poisons am I wrong to assume mutilate will be switching to slow MH/fast OH?

 

Eredia

If you get to choose from weapons with the same dps then yes Slow/Fast will be prefered. But keep in mind that if you got two fast daggers and both got higher dps than your current slow mainhand, it might be worth using dual fast. Vice versa can ofcourse be said about a slow offhand. But that is what we got spreadsheets to calculate for us.

 

paramourn

I have a lvl 80 be rogue on firetree and have come across a bit of a dilemma, here is my armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm hit/expertise/poison capped and have 2x webbed deaths with 2x mongoose. I just got back from the dummies and found that Instant poison in my OH and deadly poison in my MH did about 50 - 100 dps better than deadly in OH and Instant in MH. Is this on par with what it should be?! Will it scale differently in a raid setting?! I am having a tough time finding what would be more beneficial with my specific situation (2x webbed death) and specifically/technically why? I sincerely apologize guys if this has been posted somewhere previously, it's just frustrating because I have heard both answers in reference to which poison goes where with 2x webbed death. Thank you all so much for reading and I will be looking forward to discussing it with you.

Happy Killing,

Paramourn - Insomnia @ firetree server

 

saedo

Yes. Raid buffs make anything done on a target dummy worthless. IP MH, DP OH. This makes IP proc more due to extra procs from finishers.

 

paramourn

Understandable, but if this is the case why would I be doing consistently better on the dummies by 50-100 dps. (Im not disagreeing with you) just not sure why it would be any different in a raid setting? Is the difference in dps minimal? or significant? With my offhand damage being 75% of weapon damage does that effect my poisons whatsoever? Also the fact I'm hit (poison) capped....How does "improved poisons" tie into this....From what I understand this is a seperate variable from "hit" cap. Or do I not need as much hit/ as much points in that talent....Thanks for reading.

 

saedo

More AP would make IP hit harder. More crit would make IP hit harder (DP don't crit). More haste would proc IP more. etc, etc.

Improved poisons increase proc rate, not hit rate.

Spell hit cap is 17%. -5% if you're spec'd into Precision. -3% if you have Misery or Imp FF. -1% if you have a Draenei. So down to 8% spell hit for the cap if you have all of the above.

 

paramourn

Thank you so much man....all makes total sense. Just one last question about the poisons....how do i know how to gauge poison procs. For the longest time I thought, if i was "poison capped" it landed a poison every swing. As I'm writing this right now, this doesn't sound correct =) To clarify.......proc is how many times my poisons "decide" ok I'm going to attempt to land on the target....spell hit is...once they have decided to proc...this is my chance to actually land them? Is there any other way to improve "proc" speed of my instant poisons etc besides "improved poisons". I apologize sincerely if this is sounding noobish.....I consider myself a knowledgeable rogue and have studied etc all aspects of my class...but always was a bit hazy on this subject. Being subtlety for awhile..poison was important but not like mutilate builds.

 

saedo

Yea. Every swing you do has a chance to proc a poison. Every proc of a poison will then go through the spell hit mechanics of whether it resists or not.

The only way to improve the proc itself is that improved poisons talent. The only other way to get more procs is to increase the swings/attacks that can proc it. That's why main handing is better since it can proc off finishers, which are main hand attacks.

 

Dangasaur

Can someone provide an equation or link that determines rogue weapon speed? Something that takes into consideration flat % talents such as the new LR as well as flat % abilities like S&D and Blade Flurry.

I've searched but have only found information relevant to TBC. I assumed everything is additive but I then read some conflicting information.

 

PessimiStick

Base_Speed / (1 + Haste1) * (1 + Haste2) * (1 + Haste3) * (1+ (SUM(Haste_Rating)) / 32.79 / 100)) = Final_Speed

Edit: Fixed, thanks Drum. =p

 

Loot

Haste - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (first place to look?) have that formula too (granted you can replace the lvl70 rating to % number with lvl 80 one which is also on the same page

 

drumbum

Close. You should actually replace 32.79 with 3279, since otherwise you are converting haste rating at a rate of 32.79 rating per 100%. Should read:

Base_Speed / [(1 + Haste1) * (1 + Haste2) * (1 + Haste3) * (1+ (SUM(Haste_Rating)) / 3279)] = Final_Speed

Or, perhaps more clearly:



Edit: Also, I like to point out that this value isn't speed at all; it's actually time between consecutive swings. I really wish Blizzard wouldn't call it that.

 

Dangasaur

Thanks, really appreciate it. *facepalm* for not checking wowwiki.

 

Spookydookie

Okay so looking over the numbers from last night, I have reduced the percent of misses on my melee strikes from around 20% to 16% overall and 14% on patchwerk. My hit rating is up to 207 and it was most of the night (I picked up Fool's Trail early in the raid).
I felt that I did a lot better last night than I was doing previously...which is contrary to what my spreadsheet said would happen from re-gemming for hit.
Should I take this as a lesson to take the Spreadsheet with a grain of salt?

And moreover...
you mentioned my weapons...I DO have 2 LPC's lying around. That was what i used before.
I originally only picked up the Twilight Mist to have something to fall back on when 3.1 came out. However, upon curiously putting it into my spreadsheet, It was suggested to be a better weapon to use in the offhand (I'm unsure why it was in my MH in the armory snapshot you saw, probably just an accident after fishing or something. It certainly hasn't been that way in raids).

So now having brought what the spreadsheet said was "best" on my gems into question with what actually performed better...WOULD it be a better idea to go back to LPC in my offhand?
idk who to trust anymore /sob

One more note: I know my wep enchants are sub-optimal, i'm just a bit starved for cash and have been holding out for some WD's to make the change...I'm curious though why Berserking will go to waste in 3.1 as you mentioned. Are you simply saying that some better enchant is coming out? Or do you know something more that I have not heard? If so...please do share =]

 

Kakon

Ok, need just a quick answer and maybe a bit of math to back it up.

On target dummies testing out using Evis vs. Evenom. With the Evis using dual instant while I have a hunter poison the dummy, and switched to 3 points into the talent as well as the glyph.

Then using Evenom with instant mh, deadly OH.

At the moment getting about 100-200 increase in dps on the dummy when using evenom. However with raid buffs pushing up AP would the dual instants outdo the instant/deadly with evenom? I put those numbers through Vuljin's sheet and even with raid buffs (including 2% from either a combat rogue or arms warrior) evenom still showed higher dps then evis by about 300-400. BUT.....this did not include the extra 10% to SnD that was put in not to long ago.

Tested out the diff in my raid dmg (with same raid make up each week) and found that using evenom was about 350 dps more that my weeks prior with no gear changes. This reflects the spreadsheet numbers.

Currently using webbed death x2, with instant mh, deadly oh and 26 exertise rating.



Just need a helpful clear response to this, trying to work the math but I get muddled down in a few places.
(Side note: cant wait to go back to combat once KT decides to actually drop Calamity's Grasp)

 

Maaras

There are no new DPS weapon enchants coming in 3.1. I believe what he was trying to say is that spending a bunch of money to put Berserking on your weapons now (on my server, the mats for Berserking run in the neighborhood 800-1000 gold per weapon) might not be appealing to everyone, since you have a high probability of getting new weapons very soon after 3.1 lands, which would just require that you get the enchant again. As a 1-month stopgap, Mongoose is an affordable alternative that will suffice.

 

paramourn

Currently I have Dual webbed deaths but also have one sinister's revenge. Trying to beat on the dummies I ended up pushing at 2500 even with both 2x webbed and 1x webbed/ 1x sinister's revenge (the dps was pretty much exactly the same). Just curious, there is no set up that will allow for more dps in pve with the sinister's revenge in the offhand/mainhand correct? 2x webbed death still reigns superior in the pve area, correct. I guess I'm just looking for a definitive, "your webbed deaths are the best thing you can get right now" I've been hearing mixed things. Thanks.

 

saedo

For now yes. For 3.1 it's SR MH, WD OH based on how things look atm.

 

Rambaral

I hate to say it, but adding those dummies possibly did more harm than good.

The dummies are not useful for testing your dps, they are used for testing long-term sessions for proc rates and to help you practice your rotation.

Any dps you do against the dummy is not at all indicative of your actual dps in a raid setting, or even a 5 man.