Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 9

Asmodeu · 11/20/08, 6:24 PM

From what i understand the amount of hit we need is something like pre 3.0, 300-330ish; is that what i should be aiming for?

Ashere · 11/20/08, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Asmodeu

From what i understand the amount of hit we need is something like pre 3.0, 300-330ish; is that what i should be aiming for?

No, there is no "aim". You should either make estimates of the gears AEP value or use a spreadsheet to decide which items are best when in doubt.

There are some hitcaps, one for yellow attacks, next one for poisons (the spell-hit cap), last one for white attacks. Upon reaching each hitcap, further +hit will have little or no effect for that attack or effect (except that beyond the spell hitcap you'll still gain more hits, thus more procs, but you won't see any resists anymore anyway)

Effectively, this means the value of +hit diminishes a little upon breaking each cap.

In case you have a spare blue gemsocket and wonder if you have enough +hit and should consider gemming for it: insert an Agi gem anyway.

songster · 11/20/08, 7:46 PM

On a 5-man run with a higher level rogue today, I noticed that only one rank of DP can be active on a mob at once. I was using DP VII and he was using DP VIII. As soon as his DP procced, mine dropped off. If his was already up, mine would not apply. Apologies if this is already known, thought it deserved adding to this thread in case anyone else encounters the same issue and wonders what's going on.

This seems to be related to the system where stronger / higher level buffs+debuffs will overwrite weaker / untalented buffs+debuffs. However, you would not predict this to occur for rogue poisons, since each rogue maintains a separate poison stack. Does this tell us anything new about Blizzard's internal debuff handling mechanisms? In particular, could it be that multiple DP stacks on the same mob count as 1 buff for the purpose of the 40-debuff limit?

Oscarvil · 11/20/08, 8:07 PM

It's probably an artifact from raiding at 60 when it was optimal for one to use both Deadly rank 4 and 5 (both which were stronger than IP) which was nerfed before the personal poison stacks were implemented.

Ratoon · 11/20/08, 11:22 PM

Had the exact same experience during an instance so I sent in a ticket, from what I gathered its not intentional guessing there will be a fix for it in the future.

Dev93L · 11/21/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ashere

We had basically the same problem in early TBC:
rogues didn't pick up their good scaling yet, since the required gear just didn't exist pre-raid (no, good PvP weapons weren't available through sitting out a dozen AV's yet), a couple of bosses were extremely melee unfriendly, and on top of that, craftables for casters were just plain better. It was bad enough for some guilds to not even bring a single rogue to Kara or Gruul during the first few months.
But, some tweaking happened, we got our wellfare weapons, and things turned way better.

Similar things will happen again if rogues turn out lack-luster. And even if rogues don't top damagemeters on every fight, Blizz will make sure that rogues are going to deal more damage than other classes for players of similar skill and in similar gear. Not as much more as it used to be, but enough to be a valuable addition to a raid. The "similar damage for all classes" statement allows for a broader definition than many people assume it to be, and it's a very careful choice of words Blizz used there.

So overall: I advice you not to be too pessimistic about things as they seem now, and on top of that, a guild denying rogues a raid spot for any other reason than lack of skill is plain stupid, since it makes the gearing up process for the rogue harder, which means the rogue won't be geared for following instances in progress, which means the guild will not have the properly equiped rogues available when they DO want them.

Yes, a long rant, but I hope I kept it simple, and remember, this is a Q&A thread, not a discussion one.

Do you mean such that Rogues will be top out of the 10 classes? It would make sense to me, since we're light armored, melee, and provide no real buffs, utilities, or other functions.

If so, do you think it will take until Icecrown and patch 3.4 to get there? I certainly hope not, I was in one of the many guilds that burned out at Kael'thas in TBC.

Anyone with a good, educated idea on this feel free to reply.

MasterDinadan · 11/21/08, 3:42 AM

I've seen in a few places (gear recommendations, Shadowpanther) that for mutilate spec, speed matters more for the main hand weapon. That is, given two daggers that are otherwise identical, the fast would go in the main hand.

This doesn't make sense to me. The only advantage I can see at all to using faster daggers is more poison procs and more crits for extra energy. The hand you wield the weapon with has no effect at on all on it's attack rate or crit rate, so both of these remain unchanged if you exchange your weapon hands.

Furthermore, you'll do more mutilate damage by putting the higher damage weapon in main. The off-hand receives a damage penalty, so wouldn't you want the lower damage weapon in that hand to minimize the penalty?

I can see this being a logical move if the fast dagger has superior DPS (and thus is better to wield MH) but even in cases where they are identical (or the slower dagger has more DPS) I still see people using the slower (weaker) weapon in the main hand. Is there some advantage to doing this that I'm missing?

saedo · 11/21/08, 3:50 AM

Originally Posted by MasterDinadan

Is there some advantage to doing this that I'm missing?

Finishers are main hand damage attacks. That pushes the number of attacks on the main hand greater than offhand.

Pygoo · 11/21/08, 4:04 AM

Sorry if it has been already answered , but for both pve and pvp , what is the best weapon enchant ? Mongoose still beats the other ones ( accuracy , berserking) ?

Dev93L · 11/21/08, 4:11 AM

I've searched the megathread, and this thread.

Did any testing ever confirm the definition of a combo move? I know it only tooltips in Lethality and Turn the Tables, but logic tells me (and I'm fairly sure) it's combo point building moves (mut, SS). Aldriana posted that he thought similarly but that testing would have to be done to be certain.

MrBlackhat · 11/21/08, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by MasterDinadan

I've seen in a few places (gear recommendations, Shadowpanther) that for mutilate spec, speed matters more for the main hand weapon. That is, given two daggers that are otherwise identical, the fast would go in the main hand.

This doesn't make sense to me. The only advantage I can see at all to using faster daggers is more poison procs and more crits for extra energy. The hand you wield the weapon with has no effect at on all on it's attack rate or crit rate, so both of these remain unchanged if you exchange your weapon hands.

Furthermore, you'll do more mutilate damage by putting the higher damage weapon in main. The off-hand receives a damage penalty, so wouldn't you want the lower damage weapon in that hand to minimize the penalty?

I can see this being a logical move if the fast dagger has superior DPS (and thus is better to wield MH) but even in cases where they are identical (or the slower dagger has more DPS) I still see people using the slower (weaker) weapon in the main hand. Is there some advantage to doing this that I'm missing?

Energy regen from FA as well as the poison procs

Maweric · 11/21/08, 6:33 AM

Originally Posted by MrBlackhat

Energy regen from FA as well as the poison procs

Could you explain what has FA and poison procs has ANYTHING to do which hand do you keep those fast weapons?
As far as I can see I havent found anything what would explain why would you put that Sinisters revenge in OH and Webbed death in MH...its doesent have anything to do with poison procs or FA...so what is it then?
OK so you put IP on fast weapon=OH=no procs on finishers...but if the proc rate is only 30% with talents, wouldnt the damage difference from MH weapon exeed that poison dmg?

• Vulajin · 11/21/08, 6:43 AM

Originally Posted by Maweric

OK so you put IP on fast weapon=OH=no procs on finishers...but if the proc rate is only 30% with talents, wouldnt the damage difference from MH weapon exeed that poison dmg?

According to current spreadsheet models, the answer is no.

Maweric · 11/21/08, 7:00 AM

Did changes on spreadsheet and got result of +20dps on fast mh slow oh...ill better believe it

MissnL1nK · 11/21/08, 7:52 AM

Can anyone identify as to whether the Mutilate chart on ShadowPanther is correct based on the stats shown here with poison dmg and energy procs or are they still somewhat out of date?