Hey i was wondering if there is an advantage for having vigor + glyph or murder 2/2, i keep getting out dpsed by a rogue in my guild who is slightly better geared (but is gemmed completely wrong) and i was wondering if this was the reason, i have used Vulajin spread sheet to get the max possible dps with my gear. my rotation is:

Garrote>SnD>Mut>Mut>Envenom>Mut>Mut>Rupt>Mut>Mut>Envenom>Mut>Mut>Rupt> repeat and rinse, i believe he opens up with an CB ambush then SnD but not sure exactly, i as wondering if you guys could help me out with this question, because all i can think to get vigor for is having a large opener. as to my knowledge it would affect your dps in the long run.

No, it still has the disclaimer about not being able to use it on moves which require stealth.

Your cycle is wrong. Read the pocket guide. And no, Vigor isn't worth it.

After reading over the rotation that is suggested that is very similar to what i do, as what i type was simply an over view, i keep my rupture uptime usually at 100% and SnD w/ HfB never drops, but the rogue in my guild has better gear and wields 2 WD while i use WD and murder but thank you for your help i guess i will have to figure it out somehow

My point was that you shouldn't always do 2 Mutilates before a finisher.

that was a rough over view of My rotation, my rotation is not the issue, but i just might need to a few upgrades. i was more less asking about spec murder 2/2 or vigor + glyph but i guess it does not help, the only other thing i could think was weapon swap macro using SR for the ambush.

I would like to share a few thoughts about my mutilate cycle:

I did a lot of testing on dummies the last days on pooling and timing. Based on the "normal" 4+r/4+n/(4+n) cycle i tried to pool to max. rupture and envenom uptime. Out of very lucky Relentless/Ruthlessness procs i was able to squeeze another envenom in (mmRmNmNmN), before i had to refresh rupture. I never finished with less then 4cp.

If one gets lucky procs, what is best to do? Capping energie is possibly the worst one can do.

Envenom and overwrite the envenom buff? Results in lesser Envenom uptime.

Or mutilate vom 4 to 5 cp as long as the envenom buff is running and wasting 1 or even 2cp?

Will overwriting the envenom buff results in higher dmg because of the higher DPE of envenom?

What i also did was refreshing HfB even with 4-5sek left on it, just to burn energie while envenom and rupture are still running.

Is it possible to decide it depending on DP stacks? Lets say, less then 3 stacks, mutilate from 4 to 5 as long as the envenom buff is up to make sure to get full DP stacks for your next envenom? 3 or more DP stacks -> envenom and overwriting the running envenom buff?

If you take a look at the threads on this forum, you'll see one named The Roguecraft Spreadsheet. A suggestion could be to open that thread, read through the first post and see if you might find what you're looking for there.

Your original post reads like you are always doing two Mutilates between finishers. If that is not the case, I suggest you use a 4+R/4+N/(4+N) convention where the (4+N) is an optional Envemon cycle given time and CPs between Ruptures. The important parts of this are:
a) You're not necessarily waiting for that fifth CP before finishers. If you proc Ruthlessness and a crit to get to 4CP, it's a waste of energy and CPs to Mutilate again.
b) Don't clip Ruptures. If you will cap energy before Rupture runs out (assuming SnD and HfB are in no danger of running out), it's better to Envenom and Mutilate back up to 4+CP for your next Rupture than to clip Rupture. Even if the new one is 5CP over the already running 4CP one.

Now, if you're doing this, then your cycle is probably fine (even if worded a bit awkwardly).



As for Vigor+Glyph vs Murder, if you are strictly discussing Naxx, then yes, Murder is pretty useless. But there are other places to put those two points that are more useful than V+G. The problem with V+G is that you will find it very, VERY rare where you make use of those extra 20 points of energy. FoK on trash will be the most common area, but this is frankly a waste to spec and glyph for trash. Other talents (MP, TtT or others you may not have selected) have been shown to be more useful on bosses. You're just not typically going to be close enough to capping energy where it's not a better option to go ahead and either Mutilate or Envenom. If you're over 70 energy and don't need to refresh HfB or reapply Rupture (and assuming you're already at 4+CP), Evenmoning - or even Eviscerating if you somehow haven't built up any DP stacks - will be a much better alternative to waiting two more seconds.

(I should note that this topic is still being debated on some other threads. However, this is the general belief until someone shows otherwise through math or demonstrated theorycrafting.)

You should not overwrite an Envenom buff. Wait for the previous Envenom buff to fade before performing another Envenom. The way this typically works is if you do the first Envenom at 50 energy, proc Ruthlessness, Mutilate, and wait for 50 energy again, the Envenom buff should be gone (or nearly gone), and you can Envenom again.

I bolded the most important part of this. At a minimum, a Mutilate+Envenom will cost 57 energy (assuming 4pc T7, Overkill and RS proc). Unless you're starting this at 80+ energy, it's highly unlikely you'll be ready to perform another 4+CP Envenom before the first 6 second Envenom buff wears off. And even then, it would be nearly impossible for you to cap energy during that time, even without Vigor.

K, I recently got tunic of indulgence, gemmed it up and stuff upgrade from my t7.5 (so says panther) but with this i'm no longer 26/26 expertise i'm 25/25, is this a big problem, aswell as going for the huge amount of haste from the t7.5 to no haste of the indulgence.

Ok so with the .4.7 spreadsheet it shows I should be obtaining 4.8k DPS but yet I can only max out on 4k on Patchwerk. I do not drop HfB or anything for that matter. I'm curious as to how come my dps is -that- much of a difference. I checked all the buffs, flask, potion, and ect that apply. I'm actually BiS on everything except 3 things and 3 enchants Berserkingx2 and shoulder enchant. So where is my DPS going?

Also, why does Sinister Revenge show a 9 dps increase over WD/WD but everyone says 2 WD are better?

It's very easy to think you have all the buffs when you actually don't.

Here's an example:

DPS warrior is supposed to keep battle shout up for the raid. He shouts at the beginning but shout falls off after 2 min, you spend the rest of the fight with no shout (including the Heroism/Bloodlust).

In this situation it not immediately obvious that you lost the buff. It will show up in buffs gained in WWS so you will think you had it when you only had it of the time. Only by checking the logs, buff durations, etc and using a little critical thinking will you see that.

As for SR vs WD in the OH, Vulajins sheet doesn't model Mutilate quite as well as Aldriana's which was set up for the express purpose of modeling Mutilate. For WoW 3.0.9 it models that WD/WD is the better combo.

#1 what weapons and poisons are the best for FoK dps on normal trash? SR/SR using WP/WP? How would that ideal weapon/poison combo compare to CG/WD w/ WP/WP?

#2 Assuming a standard 15/51/5 combat build, and assuming you wanted to max FoK dps on some trash, would you AR then FoK? Or, would you AR/BF then FoK? Or?

#3 Again assuming 15/51/5, when folks are saying 3slice/5rupt/5evisc for combat, are they meaning they have 100% uptime on slice and 100% uptime on rupt, and doing a 5 point evisc every rotation (a rotation being 3slice/5 rupt/and then evisc)? It doesn't seem like its possible to maintain 100% uptime even on normal training dummies w/ self-buffs -- even when glyphed for SS/Rupt/Slice and lots of BIS gear.

#4 Again assuming 15/51/5, and assuming your goal is to maximimize DPS potential on Patchwerk -- when do people use BF/AR/Haste Pots? Do you open with either stealth->garrote then 3/5/5 then BF/AR near beginning of fight (in order to get another BF in during Heroism/Bloodlust which occurs near the last 35% of mob health?)? Or, do you hold BF/Haste for Heroism/Bloodlust, and just use AR after 15 or so seconds after start, in order to have lots of debuffs on? Or, do you time BF/AR/Haste with Trinket procs? Or?

Thanks

#3 - No, you're not supposed to maintain 100% Rupture uptime (while you obviously want SnD up always), that's not really optimal in the general case, let alone realistic. Try not to take the rotation notation too literally, since due to the fair amount of variance in the number of Combo Points you can produce over a timeframe (Combat Potency, Ruthlessness, SS Glyph, forced time off target etc.), more often than not you find yourself improvising it. I reckon it's an useful way of expressing it to, say, a spreadsheet, since it would be the average case, but 'in vivo' I find myself just putting SnD up and see what I can fill in between refreshes.

#4 - What you want to do is to time both BF and AR to trinket procs, but preferably separate ones, since that extra haste and energy regen means you're much more prone to cap energy and they don't really give any extra mileage if used together. Given the trinkets in game at the moment, the first opportunity to do this is a couple of seconds into the fight. Also assuming you're in a pretty competent raid, this is when you want to use BF, and of course Killing Spree, so you have time to use them again before the boss dies. The second (or the first, depending on your guild) time for BF you should be able to time within a Bloodlust, and that is also when you want to use a haste/speed potion. Again, wait for your trinkets to activate if possible. In between, you should get a row of trinket procs to use AR with.

Hi. i have a simple question

I have WD-mh / TM-oh is this still the way to go atm for mutilate.

Thanks~

I have been lazy and skipped ptr testing totally, any ideas which is the top spec at ulduar, combat or mutilate? I heard that at some point mutilate spec was bugged and didnt do its full dmg...should be fixed already
Wathing all the spreadsheet records it seems all rogues are combats on ulduar which makes me pretty nervous since I dont have KT fist weapon yet but BIS mutilate gear

Most of us are just waiting on the new modeled spreadsheet to be sure. From a quick overview since Mutilate was fixed they seem to be on par with eachother. Combat will come ahead on certain fights, just as Mutilate will on others. None of this is 100% certain until the new spreadsheets are ready.

Hi!

How should I start getting gear as a newly dinged lvl 80 quest geared rogue?

Hi,

Some quick tips:

1) Familiarize yourself with this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

2) Buy two Librarian's Paper Cutters and spec 51/13/7 Mutilate. Gem everything you can for +hit until you have 237 with Precision.

3) Play every Wintergrasp you can; Titan-Forged gear is decent for starting out, especially the helm since you can slap in a 3% crit meta and there is no epic helm available from heroics.

4) Do the Ebon Blade quest series to open up the quartermaster, then grab an Ebon Blade tabard. Do their dailies every day and wear the tabard to heroics - this will be your best helm enchant once you hit exalted. You may want to stop wearing the tabard (switch to Argent Crusade) once you get mid-revered as there are quite a few Icecrown quests and dailies that will give you a lot of rep.

5) Do the (long) quest chain that opens up the Sons of Hodir dailies (starts with the "They took our men" quest in K-3, TSP). Do these every day for gold and rep - this will be your best shoulder enchant once you hit exalted.

6) Do heroics, as many as you can. In particular, do the ones that have epic leather and jewelry drops from final bosses. Use PVE Armor Chart as a rough guide on where to go. Buy a Mirror of Truth once you earn 40 heroic badges.

7) Try to join a guild that is just starting to do 25 mans. There are not a lot of rogues playing these days so this should not be overly difficult.

8) Until you get into a guild, try to do a VoA25 and OS25 every week for badges and (maybe) gear. Buy a ring of invincibility once you get 25 valor badges.

9) Do not buy any badge weapons. You should be able to eventually replace your LPCs with Naxx10 drops once you get enough heroic gear to be considered for pug runs. You should try to get a Fleshshaper from H-HoS for 3.1. You will also be able to pick up a 143 dps weapon from the new Argent Tournament content in 3.1.

Just a small clarification: you only need revered with Knights of the Ebon Blade to acquire the helm enchant.

Thanks Runsel. In light of this, you should probably just use the Argent Crusade tabard and get KotEB to revered via dailys; the chestpiece you can buy from them at exalted is OK but you can also get an epic chest from WG badges or VoA; the boots you can get from Argent Crusade exalted will not be replaced until Naxx25.