Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 95

Nalikov · 01/25/09, 4:43 AM

Yeah, that change helped me out so I would recommend giving it a shot. After some tests, I could really tell the difference.

Another thing I have been wondering has to do with expertise. I have had a hard time judging how much is really worth getting. I see most people stacking AP compared to gemming for expertise like myself. I am starting to think that I may be gimping myself in ways I did not see before. Is it as important as I am putting it as or should I get the roughly 18 expertise from my end gear and gem all AP as I see more people doing lately. I know the cap is 26 but I was wondering if anyone else has some helpful insight into this?

Jaroen66 · 01/25/09, 6:59 AM

I'm having a bit of a problem and I was hoping any of you had this before or know the best anwer.

I'm running Webbed Death in MH (with IP) and Sinister Revenge in OH (DP), and I have close to optimal muti gear. The problem is that sometimes find myself short of deadly stacks for an envenom, even after pooling energy to almost max. It happens to me about once every 6 cycles that I'm having 3 or less stacks.

Now there are a couple of things I could do:

- Change my weapon configuration:
-> DP in MH (although I don't know if it can proc on envenom (after the stacks are removed). I did try this, didn't seem to help that much.)
-> DP on Webbed Death, but that would be rather inefficient I think

- Just use Eviscerate (but I have the feeling it's vastly inferior)

- Get a second Webbed Death:
I have been playing with Vuljijin's spreadsheet and it said WD/SR combo was slightly better. But I hear more and more sources saying 2x WD is better (because of DP procs or energy regen, I don't know). Can anyone tell me who has tested this in raids? Or can anyone convince me with proper arguments why 2x WD is better (before I go to the trouble of getting and enchanting it)?

- Shiv..??

I hope this is the right place to ask it.

songster · 01/25/09, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Jaroen66

I'm having a bit of a problem and I was hoping any of you had this before or know the best anwer.

I'm running Webbed Death in MH (with IP) and Sinister Revenge in OH (DP), and I have close to optimal muti gear. The problem is that sometimes find myself short of deadly stacks for an envenom, even after pooling energy to almost max. It happens to me about once every 6 cycles that I'm having 3 or less stacks.

Now there are a couple of things I could do:

- Change my weapon configuration:
-> DP in MH (although I don't know if it can proc on envenom (after the stacks are removed). I did try this, didn't seem to help that much.)
-> DP on Webbed Death, but that would be rather inefficient I think

- Just use Eviscerate (but I have the feeling it's vastly inferior)

- Get a second Webbed Death:
I have been playing with Vuljijin's spreadsheet and it said WD/SR combo was slightly better. But I hear more and more sources saying 2x WD is better (because of DP procs or energy regen, I don't know). Can anyone tell me who has tested this in raids? Or can anyone convince me with proper arguments why 2x WD is better (before I go to the trouble of getting and enchanting it)?

- Shiv..??

I hope this is the right place to ask it.

1) Use Envenom anyway, it's better than Eviscerate even with only 1 DP application.

2) Yes, WD/WD is better than WD/SR, precisely because it means larger Envenoms more DP damage and more energy from Focused Attacks. Together, these outweigh the higher base DPS / stats of Sinister Revenge. Aldriana's spreadsheet is in general better than Vulajin's for modelling Mutilate spec.

3) Never. Ever. Shiv.

Tamy · 01/25/09, 10:06 AM

hi there - can you give me an advice for bars showing my hfb and snd uptime ?

Imabear · 01/25/09, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Tamy

hi there - can you give me an advice for bars showing my hfb and snd uptime ?

ClassTimers

Jaroen66 · 01/25/09, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tamy

hi there - can you give me an advice for bars showing my hfb and snd uptime ?

What I also like to use is SliceCommander. Although I don't think it's still being maintained, it does work good atm.

What I like is that you can let sounds play when SnD/HfB is about to run out, which can be very helpful if you're focussing on other things, along with a few other nice things.

zetto · 01/25/09, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Tamy

hi there - can you give me an advice for bars showing my hfb and snd uptime ?

NeedToKnow

Lyphe · 01/25/09, 12:33 PM

I know that the [Mirror of Truth], is supposed to outperform the [Mark of Norgannon], but I had to test this after winning the i-lvl 226 trink a few days ago.

Phase 1: I consulted Shadowpanther.net ... ran the spreadsheet ... checked out some comments from wowhead ... and tested very quickly on a ?? SW training dummy. The results appeared to support [Mirror of Truth] as the better item. But ... didn't we just have a patch? It only seems logical ( and I know Blizz isn't always logical ) that they'd take a few seconds to try and rectify the idea that their best melee trink in the game was not very good. Sooooo ... I decided to run some more extensive testing.

After two fairly reasonable tests ... the [Mark of Norgannon] now appears to be outperforming the [Mirror of Truth]. Disclaimer: I don't have extensive experience testing, so I'm not sure what the normally accepted parametres are, but I employed the ones I thought most logical:

- no poisons, no specials ( I removed as many random variables as possible )
- white damage only
- 20 minute timed test for each trink

First I ran a 15 minute test on each . The [Mark of Norgannon] won this first test, but I forgot to save a combat log, so I ran the test again and stretched it to 20 minutes each. Once again, same conclusion ... the mark was ahead by about 20-30 dps over both tests ). I've saved combat logs from both tests, but I can't upload to wws right now ( 2.4 error? ). From what I can see, however, the [Mark of Norgannon] appears to be the better trink ( if my testing is not excluding some variable that you can point out ).

Given that I didn't see any buff to the [Mark of Norgannon], I thought I'd compare the proc rate on [Mirror of Truth] to what was stated in the Rogue Gear thread. The proc rate that I observed for [Mirror of Truth] over a ten minute period was 8 ... with the first proc not occuring until .59 seconds and the others happening at 2.15, 3.15, 4.25, 5.50, 6.49, 8.14, and 9.23 ). Meaning that the proc rate is closer to 1.10-1.25 ( I know it woud be less than 1.25 if the test were longer, but it is definitely above 1min now ... whereas old posts refer to a proc every .50 seconds ).

Conclusion: From what I can see, it looks to me like the [Mirror of Truth] may have had it's proc rate nerfed and that the[ item]Mark of Norgannon[/item] now outperforms it. Can anyone substantiate this or correct the errors in my testing please and thank you.

Feist-Mok · 01/25/09, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lyphe

I know that the [Mirror of Truth], is supposed to outperform the [Mark of Norgannon], but I had to test this after winning the i-lvl 226 trink a few days ago.

Phase 1: I consulted Shadowpanther.net ... ran the spreadsheet ... checked out some comments from wowhead ... and tested very quickly on a ?? SW training dummy. The results appeared to support [Mirror of Truth] as the better item. It baffled me, though, that the Blizz devs would allow an i-lvl 226 item to be outperformed by a badge-purchased i-lvl 200 items, so I posted here for some second opinions. Aldriana confirmed that significant testing and conversation had concluded [Mirror of Truth] to be the better item.

But ... didn't we just have a patch? It only seems logical ( and I know Blizz isn't always logical ) that they'd take a few seconds to try and rectify the idea that their best melee trink in the game was not very good. Sooooo ... I decided to run some more extensive testing.

After two fairly reasonable tests ... the [Mark of Norgannon] now appears to be outperforming the [Mirror of Truth]. Disclaimer: I don't have extensive experience testing, so I'm not sure what the normally accepted parametres are, but I employed the ones I thought most logical:

- no poisons, no specials ( I removed as many random variables as possible )
- white damage only
- 20 minute timed test for each trink

First I ran a 15 minute test on each . The [Mark of Norgannon] won this first test, but I forgot to save a combat log, so I ran the test again and stretched it to 20 minutes each. Once again, same conclusion ... the mark was ahead by about 20-30 dps over both tests ). I've saved combat logs from both tests, but I can't upload to wws right now ( 2.4 error? ). From what I can see, however, the [Mark of Norgannon] appears to be the better trink ( if my testing is not excluding some variable that you can point out ).

Given that I didn't see any buff to the [Mark of Norgannon], I thought I'd compare the proc rate on [Mirror of Truth][/u] to what was stated in the Rogue Gear thread. The proc rate that I observed for [Mirror of Truth][/u] over a ten minute period was 8 ... with the first proc not occuring until .59 seconds and the others happening at 2.15, 3.15, 4.25, 5.50, 6.49, 8.14, and 9.23 ). Meaning that the proc rate is closer to 1.10-1.25 ( I know it woud be less than 1.25 if the test were longer, but it is definitely above 1min now ... whereas old posts refer to a proc every .50 seconds ).

Conclusion: From what I can see, it looks to me like the [Mirror of Truth][/u] may have had it's proc rate nerfed and that the[ item]Mark of Norgannon[/item] now outperforms it. Can anyone substantiate this or correct the errors in my testing please and thank you.

Both trinkets have an internal cooldown of ~45-50 seconds. The proc on the Mirror of Truth is superior to the proc on the Mark of Norgannon based on the EP weights determined from the various spreadsheets. Mark is an awkward trinket that tries to be good for melee DPS, and as a threat piece for tanks. As a result, it ends up being nothing to anybody. (Blizz tried, somewhat more succesfully to accomplish the same thing with the Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade in Sunwell).

In general, target dummy DPS testing is flawed and should not be trusted for anything beyond the verification of specific mechanics or ability functions - not the actual DPS produced.

Lyphe · 01/25/09, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

Both trinkets have an internal cooldown of ~45-50 seconds. The proc on the Mirror of Truth is superior to the proc on the Mark of Norgannon based on the EP weights determined from the various spreadsheets. Mark is an awkward trinket that tries to be good for melee DPS, and as a threat piece for tanks. As a result, it ends up being nothing to anybody. (Blizz tried, somewhat more succesfully to accomplish the same thing with the Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade in Sunwell).

In general, target dummy DPS testing is flawed and should not be trusted for anything beyond the verification of specific mechanics or ability functions - not the actual DPS produced.

Mark is "use" every 2 mins ...

Feist-Mok · 01/25/09, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Lyphe

Mark is "use" every 2 mins ...

It's still an on use proc, and if you average it's value out (491 haste with 1/6th uptime vs. 1000 AP with ~1/5th-1/6th uptime depending on proc rate) it's going to come out as inferior.

Demi9OD · 01/25/09, 1:24 PM

Lyphe: Just using white swings is about the worst case scenario for the MoT. It procs on crits, and without SnD and Mutilate/Sinister strike, your crit/minute is much lower, resulting in less procs.

songster · 01/25/09, 1:33 PM

Also, the haste "Use" effect of Norgannon only boosts white DPS and poison proc rate, while the Mirror proc boosts white, yellow and poisons. That's the main inaccuracy in this test.

Lapu-Lapu · 01/25/09, 7:16 PM

Hi there, I have been having a discussion with my guildies about melee special hit cap and they started making me wonder.

The melee special hit cap is 8% and I believe that's true. So, the PvE mutilate spec 51/13/7 with 5/5 Precision and hit rating on gear, they say I am way over the hit cap and should take the 5 points out of Precision into something that will give me more dps.

Should I take the points out of Precision and put the points into Imp SnD and Serrated Blades which will give more rupture damage? Or am I missing something here and should keep the 51/13/7 spec?

Can anyone clear this situation up for me? Thanks.

songster · 01/25/09, 7:25 PM

Your guildies are idiots. You need to read the "Pocket Guide to WOTLK" here. Precision affects your chance to hit with poisons as well, and hit rating up to the poison hit cap is one of your strongest stats. The 51/13/7 spec is cookie-cutter for a reason, and that's because it simply is the highest DPS Mutilate spec.