Grim Toll has been best in slot for some time due to the overbudgetted nature of its proc. The changes to ArPen in 3.1 could well see it improve even more I believe.
Is this only applicable for assassination or for combat as well? I've been combat since forwever, and to the best of my knowledge, FotFF and the darkmoon card were BiS for combat.
Is this only applicable for assassination or for combat as well? I've been combat since forwever, and to the best of my knowledge, FotFF and the darkmoon card were BiS for combat.
Considering how much of assassinations dmg is non-physical you could say it's always been better for combat & always should be.
With the introduction of the Envenom-Glyph (Deadly Stacks are not removed on Envenom), and the increased AP bonus on Deadly Poison (up tp 0.15 from 0.08 I believe), IIV is no longer an alternative for Mutilaters
The standard Mutilate-Set-Up with Instant/Deadly should now by far outdps IIV... Thank you Blizzard for getting this right!
As you can see glyphed IP/DP WITHOUT Deadly Poison change slightly outdamages IIV. As Deadly Poison should only get more potent, the gap will initially widen (though it will arguably decrease again, as geat gets better and the lack of scaling with Crit brings IP and DP closer to each other again).
Realistically it is now nearly impossible for IP to catch up with DP in WotLK ever again (as you would need around 70% crit Raidbuffed to bring IP back in linde with DP - which seems rather hard to obtain).
As far as the poison bug argument goes, I can not see Blizzard releasing 3.1 with the poison bug still in the game (though they might still introduce other bug repairing it). Therefore I would not consider it, and generally make the assumption 3.1 will go live rather bugfree as it is certainly intended to...
For Weapon speeds, Aldrianas post also shows, that at least as far as Mutilate goes, slow/fast is the way to go. Though a higher tier dagger will apparently always outdamage a lower tier one assuming similar stats. So far also working as (hopefully) intended.
Not really. The above results are theorycrafted formulation based on working 3.1 mechanics. So, IDN* (wich is basically our new IDN due to the glyph) will get even better when the talents start working.
Improved poisons getting fixed will slightly favor IIV dps increase than IDN* considering that IDN* only will benefit from MH (IP) increased proc rates while IIV will benefit twice as much.
As I've said. The above numbers are based off the working 3.1 mechanics. And by the 'talents' I also actually meant Envenom buff (as it also does not currently work on PTR).
Is this only applicable for assassination or for combat as well? I've been combat since forwever, and to the best of my knowledge, FotFF and the darkmoon card were BiS for combat.
So am I to believe, that Grim Toll is BiS (for mutilate) over FoFF+Greatness (which the spreadsheet says are) even now, and even better in 3.1?
So am I to believe, that Grim Toll is BiS (for mutilate) over FoFF+Greatness (which the spreadsheet says are) even now, and even better in 3.1?
Can someone confirm this with some sort of math?
According to the spreadsheet FotFF+Greatness is the BiS trinkets for mutilate and have always been. The poster you quoted must have mixed the specs that take advantage of Grim Toll since the ArP clearly give a greater bonus to the specc where physical damage is a larger part of the rogues total damage compared to the other. In reality, this mean combat has more use of it than mutilate, and according to the spreadsheet the buff you gain is enough ArP to pass FotFF with current BiS gear (I haven't tested how low end gear is affected by both trinkets).
Now, you also have to take into account that FotFF is and will remain a buff of 320 AP when fully stacked no matter what the rest of your gear is, while the ArP proc from Grim Toll will give you a percentage damage boost to your physical attacks. This means that the value of Grim Toll will rise compared to FotFF when your gear gets better, and because of this I see no reason what so ever to choose FotFF over Grim Toll as combat (given that you have the opportunity to choose from both).
Last edited by Eredia : 03/09/09 at 4:18 PM.
Reason: clarifying
According to the spreadsheet FotFF+Greatness is the BiS trinkets for mutilate and have always been. The poster you quoted must have mixed the specs that take advantage of Grim Toll since the ArP clearly give a greater bonus to the specc where physical damage is a larger part of the rogues total damage compared to the other. In reality, this mean combat has more use of it than mutilate, and according to the spreadsheet the buff you gain is enough ArP to pass FotFF with current BiS gear (I haven't tested how low end gear is affected by both trinkets).
With BiS/Close to BiS gear this is incorrect, Grim Toll in fact is superior to FoFF for mutilate as well, at least according to the 0.4.7 sheet.
Even with INV, you still have 50-65% of your damage is from white/mutilate.
Last edited by Grunge : 03/09/09 at 5:46 PM.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
With BiS/Close to BiS gear this is incorrect, Grim Toll in fact is superior to FoFF for mutilate as well, at least according to the 0.4.7 sheet.
Even with INV, you still have 50-65% of your damage is from white/mutilate.
Did you misstake what I wrote? Grim Toll is superior to FotFF for combat yes, but with BiS (or close to it) with mutilate, FotFF outperforms Grim Toll both while being specced IIV as IDN unless I did any major error while inserting values in my spreadsheet, which I doubt.
Edit: After reviewing the numbers from the spreadsheet to match several situations I got these numbers. Worth to note is that I gemmed for agility instead of AP, and went for expertice to get as close to the cap as possible with JC and enchanting as proffessions with all raidbuffs and consumables active.
Now, we might use different settings regarding buffs, combat duration and other factors that I didn't test for, but from all these situations that I tested, FotFF beats Grim Toll in all of them.
Edit: After reviewing the numbers from the spreadsheet to match several situations I got these numbers. Worth to note is that I gemmed for agility instead of AP, and went for expertice to get as close to the cap as possible with JC and enchanting as proffessions with all raidbuffs and consumables active.
Now, we might use different settings regarding buffs, combat duration and other factors that I didn't test for, but from all these situations that I tested, FotFF beats Grim Toll in all of them.
Hmm, I checked combat duration but it was still showing the same results, Grim Toll below FoFF by ~10 for IDN and Above FoFF for IIV by ~5-15dps.
I think the real culprit is our gear selection since I used all raid buffs, AP food and Endless Rage Flask. Perhaps Human as race might alter something as well.
Overall Gear: 2x Webbed Death, Envoy of Mortality, 4pc Valorous+Chestguard of the Recluse, Heroic Malygos Neck, Drape of Deadly Foes, Surge Needle Ring, Ring of Invincibility, Greatness as 2nd trinket.
Gemming & Gear with Grim Toll
Thrusting Bands, Stalk-Skin Belt, Footpads of Vile Deceit, which for me seem BiS for Mutilate with Grim Toll.
Gems as: 3 Wicked (Boots/Legs/Gloves) and one Precise (Chest), rest AP. Resulting in 209expertise.
Grim Toll: 6112,26 on Murderable targets, Combat Duration 0.
Grim Toll: 6446,06 on Murderable targets, Combat Duration 120.
Grim Toll: 6273,52 on Murderable targets, Combat Duration 180.
There's no noticeable difference for Non-Murderable difference (ie both Grim Toll and FoFF don't scale differently with Murder)
However, there's some disparity of what is "BiS" for FoFF and Grim Toll.
Mainly because Envoy of Mortality and the above gear, FoFF instead of GT would bring you below poison hit cap (at 202 to be exact), and for some reason simply switching a Wicked to Pristine doesn't solve the problem.
The sheet seems to think that it's a good idea to stack pure hit gems until 234 (Perhaps it ignores Draenai Racial aura for some reason?)
Switching between various items to gain enough hit resulted in the following:
Hmm, I checked combat duration but it was still showing the same results, Grim Toll below FoFF by ~10 for IDN and Above FoFF for IIV by ~5-15dps.
I think the real culprit is our gear selection since I used all raid buffs, AP food and Endless Rage Flask. Perhaps Human as race might alter something as well.
Overall Gear: 2x Webbed Death, Envoy of Mortality, 4pc Valorous+Chestguard of the Recluse, Heroic Malygos Neck, Drape of Deadly Foes, Surge Needle Ring, Ring of Invincibility, Greatness as 2nd trinket.
Gemming & Gear with Grim Toll
Thrusting Bands, Stalk-Skin Belt, Footpads of Vile Deceit, which for me seem BiS for Mutilate with Grim Toll.
Gems as: 3 Wicked (Boots/Legs/Gloves) and one Precise (Chest), rest AP. Resulting in 209expertise.
Grim Toll: 6112,26 on Murderable targets, Combat Duration 0.
Grim Toll: 6446,06 on Murderable targets, Combat Duration 120.
Grim Toll: 6273,52 on Murderable targets, Combat Duration 180.
There's no noticeable difference for Non-Murderable difference (ie both Grim Toll and FoFF don't scale differently with Murder)
However, there's some disparity of what is "BiS" for FoFF and Grim Toll.
Mainly because Envoy of Mortality and the above gear, FoFF instead of GT would bring you below poison hit cap (at 202 to be exact), and for some reason simply switching a Wicked to Pristine doesn't solve the problem.
The sheet seems to think that it's a good idea to stack pure hit gems until 234 (Perhaps it ignores Draenai Racial aura for some reason?)
Switching between various items to gain enough hit resulted in the following:
I ran my numbers again, but this time I changed all agility against attack power. This resulted in Grim Toll comming out on top of FotFF, which would explain why we got different results in the first place regarding IIV. Other than that I used Strong-Handed Ring in both my gear setups instead of Ring of Invincibility.
FotFF is still in a solid lead when it comes down to IDN when replacing agility with ap.
I was able to duplicate the results showing FotFF being a dps increase over Grim Toll if you leave the default cycle in the sheet, the CttC cycle of eviserate/envenom. Using my gear (near BiS) it provides an ~8 dps increase to use FotFF.
[e] Othwerwise i'm not quite sure how you're coming up with Fury as the better trinket, in all the setups I've run Grim Toll does show to be a dps increase. Yes that is with a combat talent set and full combat gear/SS enabled as CP generator.
It was never a question if Grim Toll is the better trinket when it comes to combat, for mutilate on the other hand it wasn't as clear, hence the different spreadsheet tests. As I stated in my previous post the reason why FotFF pulled ahead for me while specced IIV was due to my choise of agility gems and food instead of AP. For IDN both mine and Grunges numbers support that FotFF indeed gives you higher DPS.
It was never a question if Grim Toll is the better trinket when it comes to combat, for mutilate on the other hand it wasn't as clear, hence the different spreadsheet tests. As I stated in my previous post the reason why FotFF pulled ahead for me while specced IIV was due to my choise of agility gems and food instead of AP. For IDN both mine and Grunges numbers support that FotFF indeed gives you higher DPS.
Yep it is only that extreme case of making an error on the cycle where you would come up with Grim being worse in slot than FoTFF. Edited my first post.
I decided to log our Patchwerk kill yesterday night in Naxx25 to do some analysis of my damage done and compare it to Vulajins spreadsheet. It was my first night as combat, so I wanted to compare how my in game cycles performed by looking at the damage breakdown from the kill in comparison to the predicted damage breakdown from the spreadsheet.
Here is the WWS from the kill in question: Wow Web Stats
Now, please don't take this as I want to brag in some way, but the first thing I noticed was that my DPS was about 400 higher than what was stated in the spreadsheet. The second thing that struck me is that all numbers seems to be in order, except that my eviscerate was 7% of my total damage done, where the spreadsheet predicts it to be arround 3,8%. Now, this is almost the double compared to what it is "supposed to be", and I need help to figure out the factors why.
Some more information!
*I run a 15/51/5 spec with CG/Hailstorm as you can see on my armory profile (unless the European armory is down as it use to be) with SS, Rupture and SnD glyphs.
*The theorized cycle would be 2s/5r/4e.
Now, in reality thats not at all what I ended up running. In fact I found it hard to stick to these numbers since I more or less slipped into a rotation where i procced up to 3p SnD by the SS glyph, followed by the rupture and in the end two eviscerates (one 5cp and one 3-5cp). After a while into the encounter, I started to use a 5cp evis when my rupture had a few seconds to go, just to keep the combos going. This meant that my rupture dmg only was 6% of my total damage, while the sheet say it's supposed to be arround 7,8%.
Now, there could be a bunch of factors like RNG, timing and similar that affected my dps, but could it be that combat rotation looking something like 2s/5e/5e using evis glyph instead of rupture, and imp evisc talents instead of blood spatter is infact viable? Or rather...outperforming a rotation using rupture?
Or rather...outperforming a rotation using rupture?
Well some simple napkin math based on your WWS.
Your avg rupture tick was 909, so a total rupture damage of 9090 for 25 energy on average, a 363.6 DPE.
Your avg evis was 0.55x3578 + 0.45x8683 = 5875.25 for 35 energy on average, a 167.86 DPE.
If you want to take out blood splatter and rupture glyph, it'd go down to 909x8/1.3 = 5593.85, 223.75 DPE.
Adding Evis talents and Glyph would be 0.45x3578x1.2 + 0.55x8683x1.2 = 7662.9, 218.94 DPE.
So for your particular WWS with possible the RNG elements, even when neglecting Rupture talents/glyphs and pushing Evis, it seems Rupture still is better energy efficiency. Perhaps if you didn't have mangle, but it does look like you have a feral in raid.
Hi, I know this has been discussed before but didnt find actual calculations so I did my own napkin calculations based on our last Patchwerk fight, please tell if you disagree and why
Point of this is that our warriors are all dmg specs and they have started arque with rogues about sunders vs expose, and according to calculations below they are actually right to argue
Crossover=120sec
So if boss lasts
over 2min warrior
sunders if not ¨
rogue exposes
Lets take example of 5min ulduar boss fight...warrior vs rogue the difference on raid dmg is only 20k dmg=0.5% from boss at 5million hp, which is absolutelly nothing. So the question is should we begin rotations between all wars/rogues on raid who keeps up armor debuff this time? If not why?
(..)
Lets take example of 5min ulduar boss fight...warrior vs rogue the difference on raid dmg is only 20k dmg=0.5% from boss at 5million hp, which is absolutelly nothing. So the question is should we begin rotations between all wars/rogues on raid who keeps up armor debuff this time? If not why?
This is a very interesting issue, however, it’s not that simple. We’ve been raiding without prot warrior for a long time, I had to put the expose armor when I was playing Mutilate and now with HaT spec (right now it’s fairly easy). From my experience due to a fairly random rotations (Envenom sneaked in between 4r/4e cycle), random energy gains, running, aoe damage, it all tends to screw up the dps of a rogue very much. Often I found myself with less than 4 seconds on two or even three out of four abilities (Expose Armor, HfB, SnD, Rupture), of course EA takes priority over all personal buffs, but it hurts a lot when you drop HfB or SnD . I have very little experience with Wotlk combat builds, but I don’t think it’s that easy on rogue to keep up the decent dps with expose armor either. I am aware of the new stance dance rage system, I hope warriors will be the sunder armor debuffers. The current ptr status of EA, being a stable –armor value with different duration dependant on combo points, will help a lot for sure, however it would be really nice, if they used the same mechanics as Faerie Fire - different duration in pvp and pve. It would certainly bring the balance, rogues and warriors have to sacrifice a lot, in order to debuff the boss. Quick look at other classes, their way of debuffing the target is either bound with the button they mash, or nets some dmg. I know that the –armor gain for raid trumps the difference in personal dps of any player but, with all that speech about, bring the player not the class, every spec is good for raid, it doesn’t sit with me well.
Thing is, rogue loses extra DPS in the beginning of the fight as well. You want to put up Expose as quickly as possible for the rest of the raid, which means it goes up before SnD. Thus, in order to put Expose up, one is without SnD for an extra 5-10 seconds at he beginning of the fight, which is a couple thousand extra damage as well.
I'm also somewhat surprised the damage loss for warriors is estimated to be as high as 4k per sunder; while their most efficient damage moves certainly provide that sort of rage efficiency, they're not dropping Mortal Strikes to sunder - they're taking rage from their *least* efficient damage moves. Hence, I would have guessed the damage loss is more on the order of 2000-3000 rather than 4000+. Where are you getting the 4275 number?
Unless a War is becoming rage starved from dropping 15 rage every ~28 seconds, they really shouldnt be losing much DPS. Even with a glyphed WW, there are still plenty GCDs open for sunder usage, and thats assuming generous bloodsurge procs. Aside from the initial application, DPS war shouldnt have any issues doing a full rotation while keeping sunder up.
4275dmg loss comes from heroic strike which is most commonly used ability, and its average value from this WWS
and at start rogue loosed 8000dmg average --> mutilate-snd-muti-muti-expose-mut-muti-envenom....and yes by my own experience rogue have to drop rupture almost entirely away, you get couple good cycles with rupture if you have Ruthlesness to support
But according to our warriors all will be arms specced after patch and their cycle will be much more tigher also, so I cant actually go for that road neither.
And still every time warrior pushes sunder instead of heroic strike that IS a loss of 4275dmg, and every time rogue pushes expose besides rupture that IS 8000dmg loss
03/09/09, 2:40 AM
Similar Threads
