No, it's not. Heroic Strike converts autoattacks to Heroic Strikes; thus, the actual damage loss is not the full 4275 damage, but the difference between a MH autoattack and a heroic strike, as you still get the white hit even if you don't hit heroic strike. And, in point of fact, it's even less than that, as that white hit would in turn give rage - thus, the "cost" of a heroic strike is significantly more than 15 rage, and the damage loss is perhaps half of the 4275 you estimated. Hence, if the actually damage loss per sunder is significantly over 2000, I'd be surprised.

well that settles it then, did new claculation based on right numbers this time and result is on 5min fight rogue looses 90k dmg and warrior looses only 28k...id say that is remarkable value to put warrior on the job. TY for correcting me

Also, since Heroic Strike is on next swing and is off GCD, if you time it properly you should be able to Sunder between your Heroic Strikes, which means the only cost would then be the rage.

true, but since they are all speccing to arms the dmg loss is alot more complicated to estimate than on fury...impossible to check that out at the moment since nobody plays arms on raids until patch. So I quess I cant write this statement on stone just yet

The only loss for a warrior sundering is a cost of rage. There should be no cost of GCD since if you play it right, you are with some free GCDs between your abilities. Thats especially true since spamstring is no longer possible to keep flurry/weapon procs.

To complement Aldriana's post, the average 1200 damage MH white strike will actually generate about 17 rage, so hitting sunder instead of HS is a gain of a couple of rage at the cost of one GCD and postponing a HS by one strike.
No damage loss occurs for the warrior unless he's already full rage or the mob is about to die since they're typically not GCD limited.

I am not sure if this has been stated in the thread or not, if so feel free to quote.. I am having a hard time finding out an accurate:

Lv 80 rogue

Hit cap ?
and
Expertise cap?

can someone with accurate vast knowledge of this please help.

Thanx in advance

Just take a look at this.

Ok I took a look at that and i'm in the same boat.. im more confused on the expertise conversion.. let me simplify what im asking (thanx for bearing with my noobness)

My stats are:

Combat (PvE) 15/51/5
Precision 5/5

AP 3374
Hit 290
Crit 34.16
Expertise 38

The World of Warcraft Armory

Where am I going wrong or am I?

Well, by looking at the page, you can see that it gives exact values for both expertise rating, and expertise itself. Thus, but looking at your individual stats, you can see if you're above, below, or at the expertise cap. The expertise cap is 26, which equals 214 expertise rating. You have 17 expertise, which comes from W.Ex and your human racial. Looking back at the Pocket Guide, I can see that for your gear and spec, you need a total of 107 expertise rating to become capped. You already have 38 of said 107, so you only need 69 more expertise rating to go.

Well, you could use a little more Expertise. To quote the Pocket Guide:

Since you are human AND wield two swords, the bold sentence is the interesting one for you. You currently have 38 expertise rating, so you would need 69 more expertise rating for your attacks to be undodgable as long as you continue wielding either swords or maces. If you would switch to [Calamity's Grasp] for example, you would need another 25 expertise rating, since your racial bonus doesn't cover fist weapons. Note that expertise rating and expertise are two different things - you need expertise rating to get expertise, but you can get expertise through talents (Weapon Expertise for combat rogues) or racial bonuses (Sword Specialisation and Mace Specialisation for humans).

So, for your situation, you would need another 69 expertise rating through gear to reach the cap with your current weapons and 94 more rating if you get a fist weapon.

Edit: Great, forgot to refresh.

Umm, Could someone tell me whats going on wronge here, Am doing 1600dps only on HC dummies in orgrimmar, on patchwek today i cant really remember my dps, but i was over 3k dps, thats not enough for me, i wanna stick on the top of the list, however, i have tried lot and lot of spec's and cycles, none worked fine with me.

Combat 18/51/2
Heres my Armory link
The World of Warcraft Armory

I think am taking care of my hit and it "more" than enough

am welling to switch to any spec and cycle in order to burst my dps higher, just post anything and ill test out

First of all, lets look at your spec. Remove the 3 points you have in Vile Poisons and put them into Relentless strikes to get 5/5

Also remove the 4 points you have into sword spec and put 2 points into endurance (extra hp never hurts), for the 2 other points i personally use them in unfair advantage.

As for gear :

Try to find a helm with a meta socket as fast as possible. Change the pvp shoulder enchant to the SoH honored ones.
Replace the +27agi gem in you chest (the one in the red socket) with a 16 expertise rating gem.
Try to get your cloak replaced with a PVE one, the 16 agility enchant on it is fine (try to get a 22 agility enchant once you get your cloak replaced and if you have the cash for it).
Replace the gem in your bracer with a 16 expertise rating gem, enchant it with a AP enchant (again choose wich ever you have the cash for)
Replace the gem in your gloves with a 8hit/8expertise rating version. Change out the 20hit rating enchant for the expertise version.
Replace the gem in your belt with a 16expertise rating gem.
As for you your legs. Replace the 8 hit/12 stamina gem with a 27expertise JCing gem.
Change the crit rating gem in your ring to a 27 agility gem.

This brings you slightly over the expertise cap while still keeping the poison hit cap

I tend to disagree for the gems. Combat doesn't have as high a priority on expertise, so gemming straight agility/ap is the way to go. Save the JC-only gems for blue sockets (and yellows) that you have to grab some nice socket bonuses. 8crit/8agility(or 16ap) is a better choice for any remaining yellows since you're above hit-cap. OH is a terrible selection as it stands right now, LPC is a better choice (or just about any epic dagger you can find).

I'm not sure why you are telling him to gem agility over AP; AP wins out in every case, especially for a deep combat spec. Furthermore, hitting the expertise cap is not really that important for deep combat because the only adverse effect of missing a finisher is the energy loss. Crusher on gloves is far more AEP than expertise or hit rating, especially since he has T7.5 and should be buying the most expensive enchant anyway.

Also, he should trade in his Omen of Ruin for a LPC. In fact, he would be better off with dual LPC mutilate or assassination shiv.

You should pick up vile poisons (take 3 points out of RS), new rotation will be 3s/5r/5e. EDIT: further investigation has disproved this as an effective option for fist / sword.

Also, regem from agility to AP.

Fist / Sword with Greed MH is better than your current setup.

Put crusher on gloves.

If you get a Hailstorm, copy my talent spec and go combat shiv until 3.1 (MH Widow).

With my gear, I lose 30 DPS by changing all my agility gems to AP, and go for VP instead of 5/5 RS according to Vulajins spreadsheet...THe gear I use is in my armory profile with SS, rupture and SnD glyphs running a 2s/5r/4e rotation.

You are very welcome to test it with the stats i plugged in. All raid buffs are active, I'm above poison cap and have 100% uptime on SnD, making the changes you suggest drops my dps by 30.

Here, saved DPS is what I got using my "Live" profile and the currently used gear is with the changes you suggested.

Roguecraft_LK_0.4.7.xls Download File on FileFront

I have just replicated this scenario on my own spreadsheet and am getting similar results. It seems as if Vile Poisons is worth less than Relentless Strikes for a fist / sword build.

I searched around but did not really find my answer anywhere so I'll just ask here. How well does HaT work atm in 25 man raids? I've been slacking for 2-3 months and Im confused if you still need HaT rogues in your group for that awesome dps or did they fix that?

The thread you are looking for is located here.

Recently, I have a noticed a slight drop in my dps in 25 man raids and I cannot seem to figure it out on my own. Here is a link to me:

On a typical boss fight, I open with garrote quikly followed by a 5r with Loatheb;s shadow blown for the xtra ap. then I go straight into a 3s/5r/5e. Normally, I was at or close to 5k on Patchwerk, and now for some reason I am struggling for 4.5k. I know with 2 recent gear upgrades ( gloves and cloak) I need a couple more enchants, but other then that I cannot figure it out. if possible, I'm hoping some of the "gurus" on this sight can give me the once over and let me know where I'm failing at? I apreciate your time, thank you all

If we don't know what you're doing different how are we supposed to know how you dropped? I dunno, random guesses.

• Start SnD sooner. SnD uptime is far more important than Rupture uptime.
• I prefer to blow CDs after all the debuffs are put up
• Your gear upgrades made you break a set bonus?
• Your raid lost a buff/debuffer
• No meta gem
• Slow OH sword with wrong spec (move 1 point out of sword spec and put into lethality)
• Shitty luck, or maybe just luck you got 5K once and 4.5K is what you should be at