velocibrad

So from playing around with the LK sheet, I noticed Mongoose is still the best enchant for a rogue weapon, since Massacre is now only for 2h weps. Is this right? Or am I missing something?

It would be slightly annoying to go back and collect more BC mats - though maybe they'd cheapen on the AH - to enchant new things with Mongoose.

 

• Vulajin

That would be something for the spreadsheet thread, but the answer is that Berserking hasn't been implemented yet.

 

RedOtto

I am looking forward to the revised 'first post' with all the information.
I am particularly looking forward to an analysis of Hit vs Haste vs Expertise, as well as the usual Agi and Stam

I would particularly appreciate a professions assessment for optimized DPS. I am enchanter/engineer (alts are farmers) but would happily respec to achieve better endgame utility.

I also look forward to the usual clear analysis of the various specs for endgame. It seems to be Combat or Mutilate, but it would be interesting to see if there were situations where one of each might be of benefit to the raid, or even a sub 3rd in a 25 man.

 

Fearendil

You should explain the meaning of the cycles more clearly i think. When i give the links to the different threads for rogues clearly doing less dps than they should , they keep asking what's the "e" , "r" or "s" , what's the "+" in a 4+ and so on.

I know it's explained in the original thread but i was thinking more of a clear list of all the "signs" we use:

+ = ...
s = ...
e = ..

So it would be more easy to understand as a first reader.

 

tenten

Whilst on the topic of TotT, I was curious if anyone knew if the threat generated went through threat modifiers like frost presence, or if it was just the dps threat from the rogue.

 

Echophantom

It should work just like Misdirection, which (as far as I know) isn't affected by threat modifiers.

 

Reizors

On the topic of TotT.. has anyone tried using like an MD as I have?
I use it almost every second pull when we aoe down instances and when I tried to pull a boss with it,
TotT on Tank then Cold Blood -> Ambush into the bosses back, the boss will swing at you once before going to the tank.
I think the same happens with hunters when they MD, but it has never been an issue since they cast it at range and the mobs turns to the tank before it gets to them, MD'ing prince malch comes to mind.

Was just wondering if TotT is working as intended or are we suppose to be able to pull bosses onto tanks with it?

 

Kakon

Ok, wondering if TTT and SS can be on a one buttons spam, such as....

IF TTT is off CD then...

/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade

IF TTT is on CD then...

/cast Sinister Strike

That way I can just be spamming on one boss and just uses TTT when its up, howerver both are on GCD and most of the variations of /castrandom and other such macros they just arn't working.

For the focus I just have a shift middle mouse button macro to select a new target off grid and it even works off Icehud by clicking on Targetoftarget name plate for those impromt tanks on bad trash pulls. That way after the intial pull I can just focus it on my rogue buddy.

Any help on this would be appreciated, currently just have it on 2 buttons, middle mouse to use it and shift middle mouse to select a new focus with a Dotimer tracking its CD.

 

Kino59

Yesterday evening I used the same method to pull on purple keep (? sorry don't know the exact english name) bosses.
I cold blooded + ambushed every pack and I never took a shot from any mob / boss, it directly went to the warrior.

Maybe were you lagging and hitting with an auto shot or something just like when you cheap shot a mob ?


(sorry for my english, french native speaker :x)

 

madman

A very short section on how to optimise dps on raid trash would be useful. I kept asking myself this trhoughout all of BC, and never really settled on anything since it wasn't critical. Would still be nice to know though.

 

Cottonface

Having raided for half a week now in WotLK, I wanna share some of my experiences. At the moment, I am running with aprx 4500ap/285hit/29%crit raid buffed, 15/51/5 specced.

Cycles are out the window for the first 1-2 minutes. Threat is not an issue at all, and an initial Trick secures this even further. So normal intro is beginning with Adrenaline Rush, then Heroism kicks in, then Blade Furry and Haste pot. Once all the steroids have worn out, cycle sets in, and here one switches between 3/5/5, 1/5/4, 1/5/5, 2/5/5 and so on, all depended on proc of Glyph of Sinister Strike. The steady cycle is gone, and one has to constant be aware of duration left of slice and dice and rupture; cycles are now dynamic.

White damage is weak atm. White miss 12%, dodge/parry 1-3%. Damage distribution is for me 30% white/40% yellow/25% poison/5% rupture/other. My sinister critical damage ranges from 3500-6000, wound poison crits ranges from 700-900. Dps in Naxx 25 ranges from 2500 (most bosses) to 5800 (Loatheb, Thadius).

Fan of Knives has its usefulness, like on Gluth to finish of skeletons, but the usefulness is limited to specific situations. I can do ALOT of damage however, I did manage to do about 32000 damage with 1 FoK in spiderwing, resulting in instant death for me (but it was worth the numbers). FoK procs poison, but nothing else.

I am still reserved about Killing Spree. It is great on trash, in combination with BF, and I have been using it as "lets do some damage while I regen energy back up" device on bosses, but its randomness still makes it volutile.

Tricks of the Trade is the best new addition to rogues. There is no conflict between hunters and rogues who to "misdirect". If its way over there, its misdirected, if its infront of use, its tricked. Additionally, rogues can trick eachother for small boosts in dps once the fight is up and running, as it increases dps with 15% for 6 seconds every 30 seconds. I havn't tried this yet though.

...and now for a question

The prolonged effect of Glyph of Rupture, does it add an additional damage dot or does it strech the "slower" damage over now 4 more seconds?

 

songster

Of course it adds more damage, what on Earth would be the point otherwise?

 

Reizors

Nice write up.

Answer to your question, the Glyph of Rupture just adds an additional 4 seconds to the skill, making it tick a few times more and giving you 4 more seconds of SS/mutilate spam before having to refresh it.


Edit from WoWHead:

(Base 1500 AP)
Without Glyph: 1906 over 16 seconds (182 + 0.0375 * 1500) * 8 = 1906
With Glyph: 2382.5 over 20 seconds (182 + 0.0375 * 1500) * 10 = 2382.5
Either way you are getting about 119.125 DPS from it.

 

Rosethorn

Over the course of a 4 hour long raid, there are two things to consider.

Most of the dps done will be on trash.
Most of the progression issues will be on boss fights.

I am in fact a Wotlk re-roller, having played lock through pre-tbc and tbc content, so I guess I am at least part of the article's target audience. I would certainly say that the article gives a good idea of how to contribute a significant amount of sustained dps in a raid. I managed 1700 on Brutallus in mainly blue gear with a mutilate spec just using a 4+/4+ rotation as described, but as stated in an above post, I had to improvise for trash dps and have had to continue to do so all the way up in 5-mans while leveling to 80.

Although it is going to be impossible to make any kind of rotation when mobs die half way through cycles etc, there are some obvious things that a new rogue should bear in mind.

1. When fighting multiple mobs, I will usually SnD from 4+ CP and then pool energy. When I am near full energy, if the mob has a large amount of health left, I will go for a 4+ Eviscerate. If the mob is low I will switch targets to the next mob and depending on how much threat omen says the tank has on it, I will go for a 4+ Eviscerate on that one instead or use ToTT and then do it. Pool energy again, rinse repeat.

(Note: I have no idea if it would be better to open with shiv --> Snd --> 4+e. It might well be.)

2. I use Instant/Instant on my weapons combined with Deadly Brew. If after my first mutilate, the mob does not have crippling on it, I will shiv before my second mutilate.

3. As the last mob in the pack approaches death, I will pool enough energy for an eviscerate and pop it at around 25% health. No matter how many combos I have. If I have none, I will shiv for 1. The idea being that I might be lucky enough to keep SnD up in time to refresh it on the next pack with a 2 point eviscerate.

(Again here, this is all improvised I have no idea if that is a good idea.)


So yeh, I would love the article to cover more detailed points like that and put me out of my misery as to whether I am doing it right or not.

 

Marieth

/sarcasm

I did not notice that Blizz decided to let you keep your combo points from mob to mob.


It shows from your post that you have no real clue about playing a rogue.

First things first.

Trash is irellevant, it does not matter, period.

I do not know your spec, but I asume it is mutilate, since you mentioned Deadly Brew.
IP/IP is about the worst choice you can make. DP/WP or if all poison talents are skilled, DP/IP would be your obvious choice. Eviscarate is a no go as mutilate, your main finisher is rupture and than Envenom to keep Snd running.
I have not played mutilate much (tried after 3.0, but it is just not my style). But what I know is, that your first action after the fight begins to start SnD running, then build to 4+ CP, envenom (DP should already be stacked) to renew SnD to max. Then its off to find the balance to apply Rupture and keep SnD going using 4+ CP finishers.

There are probably people reading this thread who know more about mutilate than I do, so I leave it by that.


I am sorry that I have nothing more important to contribute, but I just could not read over that. What I know is, that playing my rogue is still a lot fun. TTT is a great addition and I am looking forward to prove myself in raids again.

"...gone missing."

 

Surprise

I`d like to see mace-speccs considered in the guide as well, because 15% armor reduce is a very nice buff to it imo. And as far as I´m nowhere near the 754,4 hitrating-cap for dual-wield (combat), I´d like to know if there is any kind of breakeven-point when it makes more sense to switch on swords for extra-proc and the white-dmg incease.

Regarding Killing-Spree I asked myself if it´s useful to switch offhand to a slower one, even if you can´t hit for a sec due to it.

 

heeps

Now that hit rating has wildly different EP values between several caps -- namely the specials cap, the spell cap, and the white damage cap -- it may be useful to explain this in terms of poison damage and envenom. With poison now accounting for a larger portion of our DPS, the topic seems relevant.

 

Demi9OD

Can anyone with similar gear to Cotton post DPS numbers as the other raiding builds, 7/51/13 and 51/13/7?

 

Kaido

I made a post on Wowhead a few minutes ago about Glyph of Blade Flurry so I'm just going to copy and paste it.

Fighting a ~6 minute boss you can use blade flurry 4 times. Using this glyph will save you 80 energy, which is 2 sinister strikes. Assuming you are fully raid buffed and your sinister strikes crit on average for 4000...

8000 / 360 = ~22.2222222 dps if your sinister strikes crit.

4000 / 360 = ~11.1111111 dps if they do not.

If the fight is shorter it becomes much worse. Don't bother with this glyph, it's terrible compared to the other ones available.

 

Rosethorn

Without making a flame war let me try to address your objections.

1. I am only talking about my thoughts on the subject of trash dps so envenom and rupture finishers are useless. Rupture is unlikely to tick more than a few times and envenom is unlikely to beat eviscerate on a mob which is not stacked with deadly poisons.

2. Insta/Insta poison is in fact the best option for trash on a Mutilate spec if you have deadly brew. If not, then maybe wounding/wounding would be better again I have not done the calcs. (NB again I am only talking about trash)

3. You do not retain combo points as you correctly spotted. That is the reason why I pool my energy after the first eviscerate so as not to waste combo points on a mob which is about to die. I did mention the energy pooling if you read my first point above carefully.

4. Although trash dps may not matter to you, it does matter to me. Perhaps we play the game with different objectives in mind, but it is of concern to me to maximise my class under all scenarios, not just on boss fights.

I hope that is clearer now.

 

Viv

Even though Rosethorn's original question was phrased in terms of trash, there is no need for scorn.
Quite a few boss encounters involve a significant number of relatively short-lived adds. Plus, RDPS on trash does matter for speed records

You may as well think about optimising your damage output under target-switching conditions: it'll come in handy for those not-so-rare boss encounters with multiple lowish-health adds.

 

Rosethorn

True that. Bosses like Noth/Kel/Akama/Muru etc have mobs that need to be dps'd down in exactly the same way as trash, so the question remains relevant.

 

Scound

This aspect is very interesting - swapping poisons to accomodate for very short trashmob encounters and thus optimize damageloss due to "sudden deaths" on trash. I have tried to simulate this with the Roguecraft Spreadsheet, however as it is intended to simulate longer fights relying patually on averages, the results are a bit off on this one.

One thing I would like to point out however:

1) The damageloss on Bossmobs will be noticeable for Mutilatebuilds at lvl 80 due to the 3 Talentpoints in Deadly Brew. These could be invested for DPS Talents instead.


What I'd like to know though:

2) After how much time would a trashmob outlast this approach (deadly needs to run 12s for full effect whereas wound or instant have, well, instant Effects)? Any ideas on this one?

At least it could be decent for Combatbuilds using double Wound for Trash...

 

Tinwhisker

This probably obvious to everyone but I wanted to make sure it gets in the article.

Rouges get 2 new abilities in WotLK, TotT and FoK. They both cost energy and a GCD. With the cooldown on FoK slated for removal, there should be some guidelines put forth about the right and wrong times to use each of them.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Cally

I think it has already been discussed that trash dps is indeed important
in the overall scheme of things since so much time is spent on trash. Any
min/maxing raid leader will take a rogue that can do good dps on both bosses
and trash over a rogue that only knows how to fight a stand and spank boss.
Plus, some bosses have adds that NEED to be dps'ed down fast.

Arindelest and Aldriana already pointed out the reasons in the following posts:
Roguecraft 101
Roguecraft 101

Vulajin made a short comment about trash dps here:
Roguecraft 101

So what I do like to see for the TTT article is some general guidelines on how
to maximize dps on trash and boss adds or fights with a lot of movement and
target switching.