Arakas

I've found that trash is generally easier when running combat than mutilate, simply because BF and AR are more easily focused and cycles are easier to maintain when stuff dies fast (hard to get an Envenom in to refresh SnD, sometimes).

However, I do have a couple of nice tricks for Assassination rogues to maximize trash DPS.

First, carry two of the slowest, hardest hitting weapons you can find in your bags. Since Fan of Knives hits for the weapon damage of each hand, this maximizes damage output over hitting it with your faster daggers. Next, build a handy weapon switch macro for FoK that will swap in both heavy weapons, pop Cold Blood, and then FoK. The results can be quite stunning with a large group of mobs piled around you. Remember to macroswap back to your usual weapons.

Remember that TotT is important, even during trash. Consider using it on a rotation after you get familiar with trash pulls. Once you know any targets that you really want to stick to the tank, you can make good decisions. Like another macro to take the targetoftarget from your locks/mages to ensure mobs being heavily DPS'd don't wander.

Coordinate TotT with the other rogues, hunters, or other aggro dropping toons. Apply it to a combat rogue just before BF/KSp so he gets an extra 15% damage output. Ask for it in return just before you CB/FoK.

Hopefully others have some useful tidbits to share, as well...

 

Kumar

Yes, we spend majority of our time on Trash, but we do not spend majority of our time learning the trash. Trash DPS honestly is not some extra complicated thing, use your CPs wisely, refresh SnD if mob is about to die and move from mob to mob and you are fine. Even for adds during Boss fights, the most important part is bringing the adds under control by the tank.

Unless you are choosing to participate in DPS races for overall DPS, things like changing poisons for trash, switching foods, etc to optimise trash DPS doesn't make sense. If you are a raiding rogue, you know how to handle Trash. Simple Enough.

As for min-maxing by a Raid Leader, a good rogue who knows can DPS boss encounters knows his role when the boss has adds.

 

Lord Xar

Is there a listing of the overal dps increase with the glyphs?

During the last two pages, I've read that the Blade Fury glyph is a waste of time, while the Rupture inscription adds 100+dps plus.

What about the other DPS major glyphs, how are they in terms of overal dps increase, ie.. 10% x-tra crit for everiserate etc...

*********

 

Troisloeil

I do exactly this. 2 weapon sets. I use a mod (WeaponSwapper) though it's a fairly straight forward macro to write. "Off" set is IP/IP for trash. It's pure beat down, specials don't matter much, just get in to SnD and wail.

Main set is IP(or AP)/DP for bosses or longer fights.
My current favorite trick (with my main set) has been to SHIV while target switching to build CP for SnD and get poison on as many as possible. Once SnD is up, BF, AP trinket, KSp. It may not be optimal damage, but it's FUN, and there's generally nothing left standing when you're done. First question after I did that the first time was "what the Hell did you just DO?!?!?! That's CRAZY". Followed by "don't you think that's a bit OP?" Which is silly since I've been watching Mages do basically them same thing forever.

Most fun I've had playing the game in a LONG time. You can get flattened for it, but what the hell, I'll risk it.


Marieth, if you really believe trash is irrelevant, I gotta go with Cally and strongly recommend you read up. You're flying without a net there.

 

Xythil

Does anyone know if the gear list at Shadowpanther is working as intended at the moment?

It is ranking gear in a way that sometimes makes no sense, and other times blatantly goes against what Vulajins spreadsheet says.

For instance.
AEP MAEP
Meteorite Whetstone 80 122

Is worth less than...

AEP MAEP
Incisor Fragment 140 103

on the spreadsheet. by about 30 dps points.

I assume Vulajins spreadsheet(the most recent one since yesterday) is more correct. My question is, Shadowpanther was pretty good throughout TBC for finding upgrades easily. Always double checking with a spreadsheet ofcourse, but 90% of the time if it said it was an upgrade, it was. Has he just not adjusted his weighting for all the new changes to our abilites/poisons ect..?

The reason I ask is shadowpanther was a nice way to see what upgrades were coming, to strategically use badges for the best upgrades. But as it is right now, I don't see it being as useful.

Also on a side note, is specing into serrated blades confirmed to be better then picking up ruthlessness+lethality ? The spreadsheet seems to indicate that even though you are dropping a bunch of points into non-dps talents in the sub tree. Not going to lie, would love to have those stelath talents for soloing while not raiding ^^

 

ekval

Glyph of Blade Flurry seems to be better than Glyph of Slice and Dice if you play with Combat build. The fact that 5s/5r will give highest DPS output and that cycle is obtainable without SnD Glyph. I don't have any empirical experience if Glyph of Rupture actually causes over leaping and therefore causes 5s/5r to not be maintainable. If that happens to be true and we are back to 5s/5r/e, Glyph of Slice and Dice will most likely be better.

Glyph of Blade Flurry is also better than Glyph of Adrenaline Rush.

 

Caspian

Combat at 80 will likely be using Rupture, SnD, and Sinister Strike glyphs and running a 5s/5r/~5e rotation. At 70 5s/5r/5e was usually maintainable if it was a pure stand still and swing fight (i.e. Teron and Brutallus). With just the SnD glyph at 70 you were already hitting instances where you were clipping rupture with a 1s/5r rotation. With the rupture glyph its pretty much guaranteed.

 

Kireiray

I've been raiding as 7/51/13, using 3pc t6 (3 pieces from 10 man naxx) and brutal swords. I don't have any WWS to show any concrete evidence, but so far from a few nights of raiding, it's hard to use 5snd/5r/5e. 5 slice becomes difficult if you are unlucky with sinister strike double combo points, and sometimes you have to use 3-4 point eviscerates to have 15-16 seconds left to get 5 combo points for slice and dice. Also, at times, you are forced to 4 point slice and dice because you're energy starved due to not having that extra combo point from ruthlessness. Of course, if I respec to ruthlessness instead of serrated blades, it might improve.

 

Xythil

Whats the advantage of 5s/5r/5e over 1s/5r?

 

Echophantom

Off the top of my head, I'd guess because it means that if you get a glyph of SS proc it's not a wasted combo point. I tried out 1s/5r for a while, and found myself annoyed at how many combo points I'd be wasting because that one SS I did crit and gave me 2 CP - always felt like I was needlessly wasting potential damage.

 

Xythil

I guess with the rupture glyph 5s/5r/5e would be superior. Question though, is it best to use Evis or Enveom here? Id go with evis since you would be using Wound not Instant, and without poison talents Evis seems like it would be superior. But I am not positive.

 

Nerevarine

I use Evi because without Poison talents it seems like forever to get DP stacked.

5s5r5e imho is more stable then 1s5r where, as stated you often land with 2cp and so wasting snd time in your next cycle. Also ToT is easier to use in 555

 

Marieth

I am sorry if I am stepping on some toes, but I still stand by my point.
Discussing about trash-dps sounds so "Hey I am in my first raid, show them what I can do on trash".

Sure more dps means faster clearings, but do we really need to discuss this?

I asume more then half of all rogues here, if not all, have raided once in a while. So you should know what you are doing.

Of course putting a 5pt rupture in trash mob with < 40% is a bad idea, but that is the point since Molten Core.
And that you can use all your shiny AoE abilitys on thightly packed mobs, wow mages and warlock are doing that since Molten Core too.

Trash is important, because it speeds thing up. But is unimportant to discuss "strategies" or "the top-trash-dps" solution.

"...gone missing."

 

Imiut

This thread is specifically about the TTT article Rogue PVE DPS, which in turn provides information for rogues, new and experienced alike, about every aspect of PVE DPS. You can not exclude something like trash DPS on the premise of you assuming all rogues have raided once in a while because that is not the point of the article.

 

songster

This is only true if trash is the only time you care abut your DPS on many comparatively fragile mobs. The hardest single DPS check in the game so far has been the M'uru fight - and that was much closer to trash DPS practice than stand-and-nuke. Of course it's true that you can summarise the principles down to a few bullet points - but the point is that this short list of bullet points should be included in the TTT article somewhere!

If we could stop bitching at each other and actually make that list, then we can move on.

Regarding poison choices on these fights, best practice for Combat would seem to be IP/WP as per usual. Mutilate should also go for IP/WP, since DP won't tick and you're not guaranteed Envenom use, but you will still want the mob to be poisoned. If you can be sure that the mob is poisoned, then you can use IP/IP.

 

Loot

small correction songster, combat wants WP/WP rather, untalented IP is less dmg than WP. Overall:

Combat Trash/Boss with adds: WP/WP
Combat Single Boss: WP(MH)/DP(OH)

Mutilate Trash/Boss with adds (0 Imp Poisons): WP/WP
Mutilate Trash/Boss with adds (5 Imp Poisons): IP(faster)/WP(slower)
Mutilate Single Boss: (0 Imp Poisons): WP(faster)/DP(slower)
Mutilate Single Boss: (5 Imp Poisons): IP(faster)/DP(slower)

 

ekval

Double WP makes Savage Combat disappear and appear on every wound poison proc so IP/WP is better.

 

Loot

Huh? Reapplying such things was never a problem, can anyone confirm that SC dissapears for some time to actually make a difference and then appear again?

 

Scound

No, applying woundpoison on a target with your own woundpoison debuff already on, just refreshes the timer. Tested this today on a training dummy, using only shiv and woundpoison on Offhand in OG.
Neither the combatlog nor Classtimer did indicate differently (i.e. I couldn't find anythnig like ".... fades from dummy" line or similar before a woundpoison hit, nor did I notice the above mentioned effect reflected by the apropiate classtimer bar).

Can you state how to recreate this, please - maybe I did something wrong...

 

Loot

Yeah I though so too, there is no buff in the history of wow that when refreshed gets lost for some time before reappearing. ekval care to explain what you really meant? Some testing done?

 

ekval

SC effect probably doesn't fade out but unitframe debuff icon disappears and appears on every wound poison proc if you dualwield WP. My guess is UI/aura glitch but it might be worth to test whether or not SC actually fades out.

 

Deviantshade

I hope that this is the correct place for me to be posting this question, and if not, I apologize. Does anyone have any rough estimate of what the expertise cap is at present? I've searched through the forum and have not been able to find that information, so any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

Genre

From what I have seen in the roguecraft spreadsheet (outdated I know, but still), with a combat spec of 7/51/13 getting both serrated Blade and Blood spatter. 1s/5r or 2s/5r was superior by a significant margin; maximize rupture uptime.

 

Leto

That would be the simple questions thread stickied at the top of this forum, or better yet, a search.

Rogue at heart.

 

Kjallstrom

I think maybe the best way to couch this would be a quick "how is trash different from a boss?" section. Emphasize that the short fights usually mean sustained DPS never comes up, how S&D is still important, poison switching, the different library of finishers depending on the target, and so on. Sure, the trash isn't going to be a DPS check for the raid where the rogues need to squeeze out their optimal DPS, but a smart rogue team can make trash pulls go a lot more smoothly.