Brotherbear

Hi all,

I rerolled rogue from feral druid for Wrath and have been enjoying the change so far.

What I'd like for this thread:

A front page ala Duke's megathread (Feral Megathread) that contains all the common questions and answers (hit caps, expertise caps, poison comparisons, dps cycles etc) as well as common links (Spreadsheet thread, macro thread etc) that is updated regularly would be wonderful for both old and new rogues. Even after a year of raiding feral I'd still hit that front page for quick answers or to confirm theory for new people or as a refresher for me. Which would significantly cut down on the repetitve questions.

Honestly I think that would even be more appropriate for the stickey thread. But I don't know who, if anyone, would be able to update that thread as opposed to here.

In other news, on TotT, I did some testing with another rogue (nothing really formal or scientific, we ran some 5mans together) and came up with these results.

1) TotT seems to stack in that both of us could give it to the tank at the same time and the buff appeared on his bar twice. Given that paladin auras appear multiple times on buff lists without actually stacking, and that it's tough to convince people to stop leveling to do testing, I thought I'd ask here. Does it stack?

2) If you are cross TotT buffing, or chaining the buffs, then timing is incredibly important. We did some testing TotTing each other and also having me TotT him and he TotT the tank (figuring the dps boost from him getting 15% instead of the tank would be more valuable than the extra threat boost to the tank since threat is not really an issue), We did miscommunicate once which resulted in my being late with my buff to him and he spiked up and had to vanish to avoid getting killed. Even with the new threat buffs tanks get, they can't beat one rogue producing the threat of two.

3) Two rogues doing TotT + BF + Killing spree (and FoK when we both hit 80) is more than enough to guarantee that no mobs on AoE pulls will even look at a healer. Assuming they stack, again insufficient testing at this point.

4) I don't know if TotT stacks with MD. Haven't gotten in a group with a hunter yet.

More testing once we're raiding and have settled down some. Is there a prefered addon for generating statistics? Is WWS enough? I have no experience with that sort of thing as prior to Wrath being released my computer was 5 years old and mocked me if I even tried to play WoW with my video settings on high. I bought a new one for release, so the option to do more of the interesting stuff is available to me.

Thanks

 

Brotherbear

Work has been crazy this morning so I'm putting this in a seperate post in case I don't get to finish it in the next couple of hours.


In terms of the current discussion regarding trash versus boss techniques, I think a good way to look at it is in terms of your role in that situation. On bosses our role is clearly survival and dps (in that order normally). On trash the same two apply of course but there are usually number of other things you can keep an eye on (especially with TotT available. Trash is really good practice for boss fights such as Muru where add control is actually more important than straight boss smashing and speed of kills on adds really matters, so it's definitely worth mentioning.

Honestly I think TotT will really shine on trash pulls due to the ability to reinfornce the initial threat (especially with a nice TotT/FoK combo for AoE pulls) but also for wipe prevention if a tank goes down. You might not move the tank to #1 on the hate list, but a good "vanish, TotT, AR" maro will certainly move the tank above the healers and maybe even save a few other members. Assuming the mob can't be taunted anyway. This is all doubley true on boss fights.

Sidenote: In the realm of speculation, I wonder about the value of TotT as an insurance policy for boss fights where instagibs are a possibility. Basically if the rogues start TotT a backup tank later in the fight to move him/her up the threat list just in case. Most OT dps isn't too bad, so it would be a greater gain than the dps from TotTing the MT and it is unlikely to be as dangerous as TotTing a dps. I'm specifically thinking about something where the boss isn't tauntable and threat isn't an issue (hence not chain casting TotT on the maintank) but where your guild is hitting the enrage/losing the MT to damage, and if you could transition him through a second meatshield before he started murdering your dps/healers this might mean the difference between a kill or wipe.

 

Lord Xar

Hey Mariath. I think you have a point in what is "truly important", unfortunetly, most raid runs do not work in such prospects. My opinion reflects from a new phenom that is happening - competition. Whenever people are posting "dps" -- its ALWAYS overall damage/dps ---> and in such instances, rogues are sorely lacking. Though "we" say "boss dps is where its at" -- most everyone else doesn't. Also, is it worth it now to the raid leader and others for us not to pull our weight until we get to the boss? In a bygone era, that was okay because our boss dps was notable. Now, well - uhmmm.. we lag in mob dps and when we get to the boss, well, uhmmm - most all other dps are either right on our tails or passing us. So, what value do we have. Minimal value on mob/trash dps AND average dps on boss's.

I sorta meshed two issues here, your feelings on strategies vs. mobs and boss's. Sure, most mobs are not standing for more than 5 seconds when you have a whole raid beating on em'. I see your point here. How can you get an effective rotation going on mobs, especially since our CP's disolve once the mob is dead (but as GC says, its fun to have them on the mobs instead of ourselves. Our effectiveness on mobs/trash would go up, imho, if we were the masters of our CP's.). But I wanted to stress there is an important to be placed on trash/mobs and that us rogues are lacking, and that should be addressed abit.

 

Rambaral

If you've visited his site recently, you'll see he's still adjusting things. Remember that everything has just been thrown out the window, and what was once easily quantifiable in relation to combat swords + hit + agility = the magic list of what gear generally better in this order, is now a fluid list with constantly changing positions. Throw in the fact that a good percentage of rogues are going mutilate, making certain gear better for different specs, and his job just doubled.

Give it time and it will sort itself out, remember he wants to hit 80 and play the game just like all of us, so the fact he's taken the time to update his list as often as he has is admirable.

The hardest gear to rate are trinkets and those with on-use/proc stats. All you can do is add up the optimum amount of time one could use the ability and average the proc rate in addition to any base stats it has. Combine that with stat weights for two very viable specs and it's pretty daunting. I see his site eventually featuring a mut list and combat list at some point. Unless one becomes drastically better over the other (like BC), trying to balance the weight of gear stats for two specs is going make his AEP system a bit more loose and less helpful.

 

Octaviann

Something like the following post: Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers should probably be put into the TTT article. It's a discussion of when to use Instant Poison versus Wound Poison at different attack power levels and number of points into Improved Poisons.

 

Adeptus

I have looked high and low for a definitive answer on what is best for raiding in WOTLK: Combat or Mut? I can't seem to find any real proof other than the usual I love mut or I love combat posts. Just wondering, if you can help thanks.

 

Xythil

Mut and Combat are very close. Depends on weapons more then anything. Gearing is prettty similar though not entirely. Combat in my opinion is easier to play and more fun, and much better on trash. And you have not lived till you have killing spree'd someone on their flying mount, in mid air.

I have a few questions.
Spreadsheet says Instant on Offhand and Deadly on Main is more DPS by a big margin on my 1.3 offhand. Why is this? Isn't deadly on the MH wasting more procs? And also. for 5s/5r/5e is it best to use envenom over eivserate or the other way around? And lastly is there a point where untalented IP becomes greater then Wound poison?

 

jorysaywut

I'd say that's more of a simple questions question. The general answer seems to be they're pretty close, depends on whether the boss is murderable, what weapons you have access to, and what you're better at playing. I know everyone comes here looking for concrete answers to things like, "wut is best hit number?" or "wut is best spec?" but it depends.

In terms of trash DPS, some guilds are more hardcore about it than others. From a raid leader perspective, aside from obviously imbalanced AoE pulls, why would you want to bring someone who slacks on trash DPS because it's just trash. The person was new to rogue raiding so I don't see what the angry condescending post was about. Mut trash damage will be behind sometimes just because you won't have multi-mob attacks like BF or Kspree.

Edit: Bah slow posted.

 

Echophantom

Wow, it didn't even go a page before this got asked a second time.

There. Is. No. Simple. Answer. Depending on the fight, Mut or Combat could be better. The more time you spend on target, the better Mut gets, but it's also much, much harder to maintain than Combat is.

TL;DR since people can't seem to read more than two posts: It depends. If you think you can run all of Mut, go for it. If you can't (and most people can't), go Combat and you'll do just fine.

 

Nerevarine

obviously you didn't read anything ..

wound(AP) = Instant(AP) [with 0/5impr]
.5*(231+.04*AP) = .2*(300+.1*AP)
115.5+.02*AP = 60+.02*AP
...

and yes it is kind of astronomical^^

best hit numba is 42 mon!

 

Hildegard

An analys of debuff slots would be nice. At this time over 55 debuffs with a lot benefit are listed here: Managing debuff slots in WotLK

So it would be interesting to see if using Eviscerate instead of Envenom, Dual instant instead of Instant/Deadly, not using rupture and so on would benefit the raid Raid DPS. Also alternatives of talent builds / glyph sets with fewer debuff slots would be interesting.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Uthilas

I have a few questions...

What is the best rotation to use for mutilate pve spec?

Should we use envenom or eviserate?

Which poison on the MH and which poison on the OH?

 

MissnL1nK

There are many discussions on this topic in the thread already but I will bite.

Mutilate rotations are never solid because it depends on whether you have 4cp or 5cp, whether HfB needs refreshed, how many stacks of DP are on the target, etc etc. Just do the best you can without screwing up a rotation completely. The basic concept is 5s/5r/5env rense repeat if possible while keeping HfB up. But if you having 4cp instead of 5cp use them, don't go for 5cp because its a waste imo.

Use Envenom over Eviserate if you are Mutilate.

Instant on the fastest dagger (some prefer strictly MH), Deadly on the other, which should also be a fast dagger.

 

Tinwhisker

That's all fine except that Slice and Dice should not be part of your rotation as Mutilate. Slice and Dice is refreshed by Cut to the Chase through Envenom. As mutilate your rotation is written as 4e/4r. If you find yourself in a place in your rotation with HfB and Rupture up, put in extra Envenoms.

Also, this is not the thread for these questions. There is a stickied thread in this forums for questions like this.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

dirtydeeds

I don't know how hard this would be, but I would love to see a line graph showing the relative values of stats for dps. On the Y axis would be the relative value of the stat (0.00 to 3.00), and the X axis would be the player's hit rating (0 to 400).

I know this would be rough because it depends on gear and talents.

 

MissnL1nK

That's correct. I forgot to mention that after the first SnD you don't need to refresh it any longer.

 

Uthilas

How relevant is hit rating and expertise as mutilate?

Should one continue to socket gems for hit/expertise or for agi/ap??

EDIT: Also, I am not quite sure which spreadsheet to use. I have seen a few on this website and was curious to which one is the best/most up to date. If someone could please give me a link that would be greatly appreciated.

 

Tinwhisker

All your answers can be found in the stickied/highlited thread at the top of the forum. Most questions/answers are covered in the first two pages and repeated/refined later (it's only up to 6 pages, a light read).
Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

The spreadsheet you're looking for is also in this forum (though not stickied at the top).
The Roguecraft Spreadsheet

If you have other questions, please ask them in the appropriate thread (the question/answer one).

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

• Vulajin

The following disclaimer will be going into the first post of this thread:

This thread is not intended as a place for you to ask any sort of advice about playing your rogue. That advice can be found in the Rogue: PvE DPS article itself, or by seeking it in the Rogue: Simple Questions thread. Posts asking for advice in this thread will be reported.

 

Synthetic703

Is HaT going to be in the DPS article, or is it to hard to calculate because it is based on the people in your group? I think that HaT sounds really fun and I would love to know when/if it becomes move powerful than mutil or combat. HaT seems like such a different play style and if it is worth it I would like to have it covered.

 

Scound

As far as I know, it is not intended to incorporate a HaT-Model in any of the current Calculation-Tools...

It would be possible to create an estimate for CCps contribution (Combo-Points per second) of other classes / specs and incorporate this in Vulajins spreadsheet.
This however will be very tedious as one would have to evaluate lots of WWS-parses for all these classes and specs in order to get this information. With all the new content around I don't think this will happen in the near future.

 

rhalgaln

Hiho

I wonder about Rupture being still a standard attack.

Ingame I get 6k + crits from ordinary blue 111/109 dps weapons an I don't see any examples where 2000AP leads rupture to apropiate damage.

Acording to the common maths rupture gives at 2000ap:
(182+0.0375 * AP) * 8 = 2056 damage over time (wasting damage if the mob dies faster than the dot)
With Glyph this gives you:
(102+75) * 10 = 2570
+ Talent 30% = 3341 (blood Spatter)
+ Talent 30 % = 4343 (Serrated blades (which wastes your 51 combat tree or you loose lethality)
Non Crit damage with any DPS weapon.

Eviscerate does:
average (1977 + 500) = Damage = 2477
+ Talent 20% = 2972 Damage
The glyph gives you 10% extra chance for a critical damage.

So acording to the simple maths rupture does indeed more damage but only in a clinical situation.

As you loose lethality you loose a lot of standard critical yellow damage.

I think:
In an add based combat the single target optimum damage is quite useless and som burst of o 5 point eviscerate will be much more valuable.

So why do you think rupture ist still superior to eviscerate?

 

Elentor

I... don't get it? You just proved by A+B that Rupture does more damage (although I'm not sure your math is entirely correct).

You're probably also forgetting that Rupture costs 25 energy while Eviscerate costs 35 so the Damage-Per-Energy is significantly higher.

And you're probably also forgetting that Rupture ignores Armor. Eviscerate does not.

Also it's "lose", not "loose". I'm not into being grammar nazi but since you use that word a lot you might as well use it correctly

 

MissnL1nK

I have been waiting for someone to post this before I opened my mouth. I personally do not use rupture at all with my build, but I use a 8/20/43 build. I have evis fully talented with Imp Evis and Aggression maxed. My AP right now is a little over 3k and I do 9k-10k evis in raids, sometimes more. At times my burst dmg can spike to over 4k-5k dps, and with the gear I am currently wearing that is aaying something. So in my personal opinion, if you are HaT, I personally wouldn't use rupture at all unless you spec'd for it, which I did not.

 

path411

First off, you are using an extremely low AP value, most raiding rogues hit 2k pre wrath, and I find myself in starting naxx epics already post 3k AP.

Glyph of rupture adds another 4 seconds to rupture increasing it's duration and damage done. Also, with a bleed debuff (Trauma or Mangle) rupture does another 30% damage, as well as eviscerate is affected by armor giving it even more reduced damage.

If your rupture is going to last it's entire duration, it is always better to rupture.