path411

HaT builds would mostly likely be an exception due to first off being able to gain a combo point from an eviscerate crit. As well as being able to grab Aggression and imp Evis.

I was mostly talking about combat.


PS:

What bosses are you seeing a 4-5k dps spike? And as HaT what are you averaging on Patchwerk?

 

schnaxine

Yes, because your thoughts are flawed all over the place.

- Correct Rupture rank 9 formula* is: (217+0.0375 * AP) * 8
- Correct Eviscerate rank 12 formula* is (averaged): (2104+0.25 * AP)
- You did not account for Mangle/Trauma, 2pT7 and Aggression.
- Assuming 5/5 RS, evis costs 10 energy, whereas rupture is free.
- You did not account for boss armor, reducing evis damage by roughly 25-28%
- Rupture AP multiplier is 0.3, evis factor is 0.25, hence rupture scales better with AP. 2000 AP as you assumed is *really* low for a level 80 rogue. Raid buffed AP for a T7 rogue goes towards 6k.
- BS and SB are believed to stack additively, at least that's how it's implemented in the Roguecraft Spreadsheet.
- The smart rogue does not perform rupture on a mob, which is about to die within the next few seconds, anyway. This is a non-issue.
- Neither combat, nor mutilate rogues have points left for imp Evis. Lethality has been overestimated for ages, better trust theorycrafting and spreadsheets and spec into SB as combat.
- We had this discussion already quite a few times I believe, the search function should be used in this case.

*base formula without talents/buffs obviously.

 

MissnL1nK

My guild has not had to chance to do Patchwerk as of yet. As I stated my gear is kinda hurting atm. We had some people struggling to hit 80 so we are a little behind. But on stationary bosses I do around 3.2k dps (3.7k on Sartharion)usually and on bosses with alot of movement I still do at least 2.7-2.8k dps. If I can get my AP over 3.5k range I could easily do over 4k dps on any boss.


Right now I am wearing random blues, epic heroic gloves, and Crimson Steel MH. So as you can tell my gear isn't even that good.

 

MissnL1nK

I also want to point out the dmg ratios with my build for Evis and Rupture from my calculations, if they are wrong correct me please.

Evis (3000 * .15 + 1977) - (3000 * .35 + 1977) =
Before Talents: 2427 - 3027
After Talents (35% increase): 3276 - 4086

Rupture (3000 * .30 + 1736) = 2636 over 16 sec

For my build, 8/20/43 rupture really isn't worth using at all, and as I mentioned before I have had evis crit for over 10k and I am sure once I get more AP that number will go way higher.

 

saedo

It would depend on the armor so at about 28% mitigation using your evis numbers would be at 2358.72 - 2941.92, avg = 2650.32. So barely over Rupture, but costing 10 more energy. You want to average things rather than noticing that 1 big crit every once in a blue moon.

 

MissnL1nK

I can always add rupture in my rotation without any issues. I just didn't see the need at the time and its still trivial at best with my build. On 95% of the boss fights my evis avg around 3300, the armor isn't usually a big factor, although I think Naxx bosses have semi-low armor values for the most part so the mitigation isn't that noticable yet.

Thanks for the post, I will probably put rupture in my rotation just to test your point and see if increases occur.

 

Ashere

You're using a HaT build, which mean Evisc is indeed your primary finisher, though I'd advice to still keep both rupture and SnD up as much as possible, since they simply cost you no energy to use. And I know, a HaT build in raid actually doesn't have much of an energy problem due to mainly spamming 0-10 energy finishers, but 0 energy is still cheaper than 10 energy. So do weave in those Ruptures when you can, preferrably glyphed even.

Anyway, HaT is kept out of the TTT article for now, so further questions and such should go to the Simple Questions/Answers thread, while I wouldn't be against the idea of having a seperate HaT thread for theorycrafting for now, untill it's somehow considered useful to raids and can be included into the TTT.

I'm not someone to open new threads out of nowhere, so I'll gladly leave that to the discretion of someone more authoritive here, like Valujin or Aldriana. But I'll gladly help build up some framework around rotations, gearing, gemming and glyphing then.

 

Custardcream

Changing the subject entirely (which is probabally a good thing seeing as we're slipping back to HaT again,);
There was a formula kicking about for calculating the DPS increase of movement speed enchants depending on time spent off target. Is there any way of applying this to the new glyph of sprint.
My thoughts being, as mutilate your 3rd glyph slot is free. Glyph of sprint reduces the extra distance traveled by using sprint when compared to unglyphed sprint. However its extremely rare to use the full 15 seconds of sprint in order to get back on target. Is it possible to calculate the DPS value of glyph of sprint given a distance from target? Perhaps its not worthwhile though, seeing as combat has no room for the glyph and mutilate has no other glyph that could concievabaly give a DPS increase.

 

tk-

lets try more hard calc.
5k ap + 50% crit on evis = blue-epix raidbuffed, maby less evis crit, but ok;
rup and evis glyphs, cap of hit for abilities and exp cap;
20% mitigation on boss - actually more than 20%, but ok again -.-

avg normal evis = [(5000*.15 + 1977) + (5000*.35 + 2231)]/2 = (2727 + 3981)/2 = 3354
avg normal evis +35% dmg w/talents = 3354*1.35 = 4527.9
avg crit evis = 4527.9*2 = 9055.8
we have 50% of evises critically hit and 50% of evises normally hit, well:
avg evis = (4527.9 + 9055.8)/2 = 6791.85
overall evis = avg evis - mitigation = 6791.85*0.8 = 5432.8

base rupture = (217 + 0.0375*5000)*10 = 4045
base rupture + 3/3 serrated blades = 4045*1.3 = 5258.5
base rupture + 3/3 serrated blades + 2/5 T7 = 4045*1.4 = 5663
with mangle/trauma on target = 5663*1.3 = 7361.9

rupture scaling with ap better than evis. well, if iam right rupture have clearly better dmg than evis and must be 100% uptime even in sub-build

as a rogue with 6-21-44 talent build in ideal i use Rup with Shstep like this:
0sec = shs+rup, 20sec = rup, 40sec = shs+rup, 60sec = rup, 80sec = shs+rup etc.

 

Shant

Sorry for jumping a little back.

Macro for TTT:

That way you will have the focus target free for other jobs, and you wont lose your target.
Only thing you have to do though is editing the tank name when ever you are playing
with a new tank.

 

ekval

That will give you really limited usage. Better go with focus macro + either Clique or mouseover macro. This way you can toss first TotT to tank and after that to any DPS who may benefit from it.

 

Antiarc

My Tricks macro:

/cast [target=mouseover,help,exists,nodead] Tricks of the Trade; [target=target,help,exists,nodead] Tricks of the Trade; [target=focus,exists,nodead] Tricks of the Trade; [target=targettarget,exists,help]Tricks of the Trade

Basically, casts tricks on the first available target, where available targets, in order are: mouseover, focus, target, targettarget.

Works like a charm.

 

Fezogue

I'm new to this forum and fairly new to playing a rogue but would someone be able to point me in the right direction of a simple, easy to use marco for tricks of the trade.

I want to have so that i put a rogues name in the macro on the raid, and when i press it, it automatically casts it on the rogue without having to select or focus on him? Is this possible?

 

• Neto-

/cast [target=Name of the Rogue] Tricks of the Trade

 

Rosethorn

So they do 15% more damage. Tank threat is not an issue, and if rogues do it to each other they keep the same threat they would have had if no one was using tricks but do 15% more damage for 6 seconds every 30 seconds. This can only produce win cakes.

Sukoden - "I refuse to play druid. In the end you get too many and you end up with a frickin zoo."

 

Valen

The following calculations are obviously simplified, but will give the idea away:

Right now, the best rotation, according to spreadsheet, is to completly ignore eviscerate and try to have 100% rupture up time. (Even though in reality, the number will normally be around 95% due to the lag/timing of re-apply). The ideal cycle is a cycle which has a 19.xx-20.xx duration. Now why is this better?

1) Try to add eviscerate to your cycle. That will increase the cycle duration to around 30-33 seconds. Now the average rupture hits are around 1000-1100 per 2 second, full buffed. That means that if we take the average for a decent T7 geared rogue to be 1050, then you will lose 13/2*1050 damage if you go for a longer cycle: ~6800 damage lost from rupture.

2) Considering that Eviscerate needs 10 extra energy, the average damage will not match the damage lost from rupture.

3) Now, when will eviscerate become useful in the extend that you can again switch to 5/5/5 cycle? The answer is that you need to get your 5/5/5 cycle's duration short enough that the damage gained from eviscerate passes the damage lost from rupture off-time + the extra energy needed for eviscerate, which will be harder to achieve, due to the better scaling of rupture.

4) Going for the short cycle with only 19-20 seconds has 2 extra benefits: A) You can ditch your SnD Glyph and grab AR/BF. B) Attack power becomes the "clearly" better stat and you can easily gem your gear and scale pretty good with a single stat.

I hope I didn't miss something.

 

tiddly

Hi there.. Have been reading the forum since I pulled my rogue out of retirement.

I am Mut spec and am just wondering about EP tables by Aldriana and more specifically the yellow hit cap.

I think this is the case, but want to make sure I am reading it correctly.

Hit is worth 2.2 before the yellow hit cap and 1.8 below the poison hit cap.
Am I right thinking that the yellow hit cap is the special attacks.

So with Precision 5/5 is this right for mutilate

Yellow (Special) 132 Hit Poison 315 Normal 755

So once were over 132 Hit Exp and Agi become a greater stat than hit?

It seemed a bit low which is Why I thought I would ask.

On a side note, a section on Mods and add on's for Rogues raiding would be good, I am after a decent timer for HfB etc.

Thanks Tidd

 

• Neto-

..Yes, if the EP for hit is lower than Agility or Attack Power, it becomes worse. The specials hit cap is the only amount we need to get. Why Agility or AP are worth more than hit is now is explained thoroughly in many threads here, I'd suggest searching if you want to know more about that. Also, if this information wasn't right it wouldn't be here in the first place; these forums have the credibility of pretty much always being right.

 

Mordikul

This is my first post on EJ , but I have been an Avid reader over the last couple years while playing my Rogue. Thanks to all the seasoned rogues for the great advice and suggestions.

Currently I am totally at a lose and dissapointed with the POOR dps I am putting out. With all the changes to hit and combat swords dropping behind mut it pve raid dps , I am wondering if my rotations are just bad now or something new I am missing. I have read every forum here in good detail ( some / most of it over my head lol ) I have read the pocket guide , the dps discussions and feel like I am using a great rotation and using cooldowns well and all other available tools to me. Yet still to date my highest dps yet was 2300 on Patchwerk 10 man and I was doing better dps at 70 on any tank and spank boss.

I am not looking for anyone to teach me how to play my class , just maybe a little insight into something critical I may be missing.

my armory is :

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am getting SnD up immediatly and going right into a 5snd / 5 rup cycle and blowing all my CD's at the same time.

I never let SnD go down and can maintain rup 98% of the time. but still my dps is very very poor IMO

Thanks in advance

 

Rosethorn

It's interesting you have a very low hit rating which is going to impair your energy generation from potency considerably again what buffs and debuffs are being used will have a considerable effect, but I would also say with the new SS, SnD and Rup Glyphs, you should be generating enough CP to work an xS/yR/zN rotation.

Off the top of my head - get more hit.

Sukoden - "I refuse to play druid. In the end you get too many and you end up with a frickin zoo."

 

• Neto-

You're definitely doing something wrong, and there's no way it's just your rotation. 2300 seems awfully low for your gear, did you have any buffs at all? I believe a 3 finisher rotation is considered the best for Combat at the moment (5SnD-5Rup-5Evisc). Do you have the right glyphs? Wound off-hand, Deadly mainhand? It's also probably better to Expose Armor if you don't have a Warrior in the group.

Ugh, seriously?

 

MissnL1nK

I have 2 different builds so far for HaT, 8/20/43 and 10/18/43. One is complete Evis dmg, and the other Rupture. I am currently using the Rupture build to test out what has been said here so far. Using the rupture build my dmg has went down a large amount. With the Evis build I was doing around 2.5k - 2.8k with most 10 man's, if I had a hunter I could do upwards for 3.2k usually. Now with the rupture build I only do around 1.9k - 2.2k on average.

Of course my gear is not that good as mentioned earlier, this is still a big difference in dps none the less. I understand the numbers given with rupture, but the Evis build seems to destroy it as of right now unless I am doing something wrong. And yes I keep rupture up with both builds and this is the result.

 

Mordikul

I am pretty sure / positive my hit is alittle low , but not low enough to see the low low dmg ..... Like I said I was doing more dmg pre wrath.

MY ap is decent / my expertise is good to great / my crit is respectable.

I havent tried enough of a 5snd / 5r / 5evis cycle yet so I will give that a shot.

also currently using SS / SnD / Rup glyph.

Is there any point replacing my OH ( Avool's ) for Lib papper cutter ?

if so still try for the same 3 cycle rotation ?

 

MissnL1nK

I had to switch to a HaT build just because my dmg had went down so much from BC. Combat atm is doing such terrible dmg I don't even want to talk about it, and Mutilate still can't compare to HaT imho. Maybe as the gear gets better this will change but as of right now rogues are a laugh in raids compared to other classes, especially hunters.

 

• Neto-

Download the spreadsheet and see for yourself?

I mean I have no idea how you're getting your DPS so low, it certainly isn't right. I did a lot more with much less gear when I was combat. Also, from the looks of your post it almost sounds like you're whining and you might want to change your tone or you will probably get an infraction.