TTT Article - Rogue: PvE DPS - Discussion - Page 6

Dev93L · 11/28/08, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Neto-

You're definitely doing something wrong, and there's no way it's just your rotation. 2300 seems awfully low for your gear, did you have any buffs at all? I believe a 3 finisher rotation is considered the best for Combat at the moment (5SnD-5Rup-5Evisc). Do you have the right glyphs? Wound off-hand, Deadly mainhand? It's also probably better to Expose Armor if you don't have a Warrior in the group.

Ugh, seriously?

Eviscerate, not envenom? Or typo?

• Neto- · 11/28/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dev93L

Eviscerate, not envenom? Or typo?

I mean Eviscerate.

Dev93L · 11/28/08, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Neto-

I mean Eviscerate.

I must be confused? I apologize. From the Pocket Guide:

6. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If yes, Envenom. If no, Go to Step 2.

• Neto- · 11/28/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dev93L

I must be confused? I apologize. From the Pocket Guide:

6. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If yes, Envenom. If no, Go to Step 2.

The latest sheet, that was released yesterday, currently shows Eviscerate a good deal better than Envenom for Combat builds.

ekval · 11/28/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Neto-

The latest sheet, that was released yesterday, currently shows Eviscerate a good deal better than Envenom for Combat builds.

I think that has always been the case. Eviscerate > Envenom as third finisher for Combat builds because lack of Improved Poisons/Vile Poisons talent.

Dev93L · 11/28/08, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by ekval

I think that has always been the case. Eviscerate > Envenom as third finisher for Combat builds because lack of Improved Poisons/Vile Poisons talent.

All the theorycrafting (up until today apparently) showed otherwise. Thanks for the patience Neto.

• Neto- · 11/28/08, 3:12 PM

For the record, I do believe Eviscerate has been better than Envenom for Combat builds for some time. Aggression increases Eviscerate damage by 15% and Combat doesn't use Instant Poison at all, so the pocket guide was probably a typo.

Kumar · 11/28/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mordikul

This is my first post on EJ , but I have been an Avid reader over the last couple years while playing my Rogue. Thanks to all the seasoned rogues for the great advice and suggestions.

Currently I am totally at a lose and dissapointed with the POOR dps I am putting out. With all the changes to hit and combat swords dropping behind mut it pve raid dps , I am wondering if my rotations are just bad now or something new I am missing. I have read every forum here in good detail ( some / most of it over my head lol ) I have read the pocket guide , the dps discussions and feel like I am using a great rotation and using cooldowns well and all other available tools to me. Yet still to date my highest dps yet was 2300 on Patchwerk 10 man and I was doing better dps at 70 on any tank and spank boss.

I am not looking for anyone to teach me how to play my class , just maybe a little insight into something critical I may be missing.

my armory is :

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am getting SnD up immediatly and going right into a 5snd / 5 rup cycle and blowing all my CD's at the same time.

I never let SnD go down and can maintain rup 98% of the time. but still my dps is very very poor IMO

Thanks in advance

Got a WWS Report?

Echophantom · 11/28/08, 9:03 PM

One thing I noticed right off the bat is you saying you use a 5s/5r rotation. In the amount of time a 5-point SnD has with the glyph and talent, you generate WAY more than enough points to use Rupture, another finisher, and then reapply SnD. If you're going to stick to a 2-finisher cycle, 2s5r is plenty maintainable and still gives you a fair amount of extra Slice time - if you've read through the various threads, you've inevitably seen that most combat rogues have switched to a 3-finisher cycle (something alone the lines of 5s/5r/5n, which still gives extra Slice uptime) for just that reason - glyphed and talented, 36 seconds is a long, LONG time to generate combo points.

Capek · 11/29/08, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

This thread is not intended as a place for you to ask any sort of advice about playing your rogue. That advice can be found in the Rogue: PvE DPS article itself, or by seeking it in the Rogue: Simple Questions thread. Posts asking for advice in this thread will be reported.

Taken from the first line of the first post in this thread.
Is it possible we could keep the subject matter of this thread relevant instead of generating whole pages of discussion that belong in the Rogue Simple Questions/Simple answer thread?

I don't see what one rogue's poor DPS has to do with the Theorycraft Think Tank, on which this thread is meant to be based.

antonied90 · 11/29/08, 8:10 AM

Actually, guys 15/51/5 and 7/51/13 are given as the combat raid builds here (of which i personally believe the latter one is better) but lately I've been theorycrafting on my own some and i actually believe Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is better than both and in a ~3min fight like patchwerk should show about 20-30k more dmg done than 7/51/13. Maybe I'm wrong? (deadly mh, wound oh, 5snd,5rupture,5evi rotation)

Arindelest · 11/29/08, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by antonied90

Actually, guys 15/51/5 and 7/51/13 are given as the combat raid builds here (of which i personally believe the latter one is better) but lately I've been theorycrafting on my own some and i actually believe Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is better than both and in a ~3min fight like patchwerk should show about 20-30k more dmg done than 7/51/13. Maybe I'm wrong? (deadly mh, wound oh, 5snd,5rupture,5evi rotation)

No one is going to believe you on these forums unless you actually post some supporting proof for your arguments. Needless to say I find your conclusions highly unlikely given that you've essentially taken a 15/51/5 spec (which is already inferior to 7/51/13), weakened it just so you can use Eviscerate as a finisher, and removed three points from your very highest DPS talents (Killing Spree and Relentless Strikes) just to get Vile Poisons.

lurid · 11/29/08, 6:03 PM

Quick question. I remember seeing something (I think it was here), where a person was using envenom as their only finisher and claiming it was actually higher then cycling in rupture.

Does anyone have any hard numbers on that?

I actually do this because I can never seem to get a feral druid. I do pretty decent DPS with this rotation (2600 + on patchwerk, with only 1 lvl 80 purple in a 10 man).

Leto · 11/29/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by lurid

Quick question. I remember seeing something (I think it was here), where a person was using envenom as their only finisher and claiming it was actually higher then cycling in rupture.

Does anyone have any hard numbers on that?

I actually do this because I can never seem to get a feral druid. I do pretty decent DPS with this rotation (2600 + on patchwerk, with only 1 lvl 80 purple in a 10 man).

Only using envenom is easier, but it is less dps than using rupture as well. Chances are if they are seeing more dps from just using envenom, then they aren't properly using rupture, pooling energy, etc.

Kumar · 12/01/08, 2:20 AM

So, here is something to add/discuss for combat builds - Optimal Use of AR.

I have noticed for a 5s/5r/5e (eviscerate) cycle, using AR after I put up 5s/5r allows me to put in two Eviscerates and still build up the 4-5 CPs needed for the next SnD.

So, would that be the Optimal use for using AR?

Also, for a tank and spank fight like Patchwerk, would the use of KS increase or decrease our DPS?

path411 · 12/01/08, 3:02 AM

I often use killing spree, after my eviscerate, at low energy, and waiting for my SnD to get down.

*and yes it is a dps increase.

Darkhavans · 12/01/08, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

So, here is something to add/discuss for combat builds - Optimal Use of AR.

I have noticed for a 5s/5r/5e (eviscerate) cycle, using AR after I put up 5s/5r allows me to put in two Eviscerates and still build up the 4-5 CPs needed for the next SnD.

So, would that be the Optimal use for using AR?

Also, for a tank and spank fight like Patchwerk, would the use of KS increase or decrease our DPS?

For me I'll generally use AR straight away (after getting a couple combo points built up of course) so that way I can get SnD and Rupture up as soon as possible, and by that time AR will still have enough time for me to get 1-2 eviscerates off before going back to SnD.

Echophantom · 12/01/08, 3:50 AM

Basically, the way you're going to get the most usage (and thus the most DPS) out of your cooldowns is to be using them as soon as they come off cooldown. For AR, this means burning through your initial energy pool as fast as possible, and then blowing it right away to increase the chance you'll get a second one on the same fight. The same is true for BF and Killing Spree - you want to use them ASAP to make sure you'll get the greatest usage out of them.

So in the opening of a fight it would probably be BF to burn energy, AR to speed up getting up 5r and 5e then back to 5s, and then KSpree once you're back and low on energy, since there's no point in risking capping out.

• Neto- · 12/01/08, 3:54 AM

It's very advisable that you wait for raid debuffs to be applied before burning all your cooldowns; not necessarily all but at least the most important ones, such as Sunder Armor. Depending on the fight length, it might be worth holding a bit until you get a Mirror of Truth (if you have it) proc, and then use your cooldowns (KSpree should be used sooner to not coincide with AR).

Menjina · 12/01/08, 5:35 AM

Hi, i've played around a bit with the sheet ...

Using the Mutilate-Spec 51/13/7 and then switching points in improved Poisons tells me
that with 1/5 imp. Poisons - Instant on Mainhand means more dps than Wound.

Is this correct? 'cause it's always said, that you have to have 4Points or more so that Instant would be better
than Wound.

thanks in advance, Menjina

P.S.: sry for my bad english, it's not my native language (:

Scound · 12/01/08, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Menjina

Hi, i've played around a bit with the sheet ...

Using the Mutilate-Spec 51/13/7 and then switching points in improved Poisons tells me
that with 1/5 imp. Poisons - Instant on Mainhand means more dps than Wound.

Is this correct? 'cause it's always said, that you have to have 4Points or more so that Instant would be better
than Wound.

thanks in advance, Menjina

P.S.: sry for my bad english, it's not my native language (:

Depending on your Attackpower this could actually be the case:

The formulas are:
Instant 9: 20% of [300+0.1*AP] or -> [60+0.02*AP]
Wound 7: 50% of [231+0.04*AP] or -> [115.5+0.02*AP]

As you can see without 1/5 imp. Poisons, Wound is superior in any setting imaginable.

Now with 1/5 imp. Poisons the situation for Instant looks like this:
Instant: 22% of [300+0.1*AP] or -> [66+0.022*AP]

So at [AP>(115.5-66)/0.002=2475], Instant Poison is better than Wound Poison. This should be the case in any reasonable Raid (I originally expected the AP-Cap to be quite a bit higher though - now we know for sure though)...

Brotherbear · 12/01/08, 6:11 PM

It's been repeated several times now that this isn't the place to ask for advice on how to play your rogue. Please make use of the other threads for this purpose.

I promise you that most of us are addicted enough that we read them all.

On a theorycrafting note I had Omen of Ruin drop for me the other night and I noticed that all the talents that improve SS also improve backstab damage so, just for fun, I plugged it into the spreadsheet using these settings:

1) Default settings (troll etc)
2) Changed Spec to 7/51/13
2) Changed the offhand to Fang of Truth (cause I have one)
3) Changed the cycle to 5s/5r
4) Changed combo builder to Sin strike and changed the expose armor glyph to Sin Strike
5) Changed MH poison to Wound from Instant

It outputted a projected DPS of 3920.48

When I changed to a 13/51/7 spec adding puncturing wounds and ruthlessness to the Assasination tree, and changed the combo point builder to backstab I got 3912.99

If only the Backstab dagger wasn't so worthless for PvE it would probably be superior in this circumstance. Like I said, this was just for fun. Combat daggers is still decidedly worse than Mutilate.

• Feist-Mok · 12/01/08, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Brotherbear

It's been repeated several times now that this isn't the place to ask for advice on how to play your rogue. Please make use of the other threads for this purpose.

I promise you that most of us are addicted enough that we read them all.

On a theorycrafting note I had Omen of Ruin drop for me the other night and I noticed that all the talents that improve SS also improve backstab damage so, just for fun, I plugged it into the spreadsheet using these settings:

1) Default settings (troll etc)
2) Changed Spec to 7/51/13
2) Changed the offhand to Fang of Truth (cause I have one)
3) Changed the cycle to 5s/5r
4) Changed combo builder to Sin strike and changed the expose armor glyph to Sin Strike
5) Changed MH poison to Wound from Instant

It outputted a projected DPS of 3920.48

When I changed to a 13/51/7 spec adding puncturing wounds and ruthlessness to the Assasination tree, and changed the combo point builder to backstab I got 3912.99

If only the Backstab dagger wasn't so worthless for PvE it would probably be superior in this circumstance. Like I said, this was just for fun. Combat daggers is still decidedly worse than Mutilate.

It should be noted that if you were going to put together a Backstab build, [Omen of Ruin] is a pretty terrible choice for a Mainhand.

That's like setting up a sword build and mainhanding [Hailstorm]

hacko · 12/02/08, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by ekval

Glyph of Blade Flurry seems to be better than Glyph of Slice and Dice if you play with Combat build. The fact that 5s/5r will give highest DPS output and that cycle is obtainable without SnD Glyph. I don't have any empirical experience if Glyph of Rupture actually causes over leaping and therefore causes 5s/5r to not be maintainable. If that happens to be true and we are back to 5s/5r/e, Glyph of Slice and Dice will most likely be better.

Glyph of Blade Flurry is also better than Glyph of Adrenaline Rush.

You are greatly mistaken.
First, Glyph of S&D is added BEFORE Imp S&D is multiplied. That means 1CP SnD = 18s. Now tell me where that is not better than Glyph of BF.
Second, Glyph of AR is currently bugged or mistooltipped and it also lowers the CD on KS. I still think rupture is stronger, but no one on my realm/faction has it yet. 1m KS is good. AND ITS FUN.

ekval · 12/02/08, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by hacko

You are greatly mistaken.
First, Glyph of S&D is added BEFORE Imp S&D is multiplied. That means 1CP SnD = 18s. Now tell me where that is not better than Glyph of BF.
Second, Glyph of AR is currently bugged or mistooltipped and it also lowers the CD on KS. I still think rupture is stronger, but no one on my realm/faction has it yet. 1m KS is good. AND ITS FUN.

My post is too old to be counted now, AR bug wasn't known and spreadsheets have changed after that post.

If you are in situation that you can't obtain Glyph of Rupture, and are running 2 finisher cycles (3s/5r for example), Glyph of Slice and Dice simply doesn't give anything as that cycle is already maintainable without SnD Glyph.

3 finisher cycles will get benefit from SnD Glyph like my older post states.