Brotherbear

I absolutely agree. However, as I mentioned, this whole line of inquiry was opened by my getting Omen of Ruin on the third trash mob into my first Naxx 10 run and noticing that all my beloved SS talents also boosted Backstab. Since then I've gotten [Webbed Death] and gone full mutilate. As a reroll I didn't have access to Sunwell/BT so I've been using whatever I could get my hands on in Wrath.

That all being said, looking at it, I really should run the numbers comparing using best in slot weapons, except that at this point there is no point since Mutilate will always be better for daggers, and fist/dagger or swords will always be better for combat. Especially since neither has facing requirements.

 

Busko

Hi all,
This is directed to Loot you said,
Combat Trash/Boss with adds: WP/WP
Combat Single Boss: WP(MH)/DP(OH)

Last couple of runs in naxx and Maly i switched to WP/WP, and i think im geting a better result even for single boss fights. as it can crit for a nice amount ^^
Currently useing Silent Crusader 2.5s and Hatestrike 1.6s

Secondly Vulajin you said,
"That would be something for the spreadsheet thread, but the answer is that Berserking hasn't been implemented yet."
I read it as soon as its in, its going to be better then Moongose. ( as its in game now ^^) i would expect the proc rate to be equal.

 

sirann

Last night we did Loatheb on Heroic Naxx, nothing special, but I used this fight to try and figure something out. I used the extra 50% crit from the buff to figure out how misses, glancing, dodge, parry, and block equate into white attack crits.

I have roughly a 9.5% chance to miss a Raid boss with white attacks coupled with 2.75% chance of being dodged. I wasn't quite sure of the exact % glancing blow was at, but I believed it to be 24%.

My crit % on my character sheet throughout all but the first 15 seconds of the fight was at 90.25%, I kept my character screen open the entire time to make sure the 50% buff didn't fall off.

My recount and WWS parse from that night had my white hit at 9.2% crit at 52% my glancing at 26% my dodged attacks at 2.5% and my white misses at 10.2%.

Call me retarded but glancing blows are also (already counting dodges and misses) pushing white crits off the table? I did use the search button for "glancing blow" and did some light skimming without finding someone posting that glancing blows do in fact push them off the table, it maybe common knowledge to some but for others it may not be. Like myself until 10 minutes ago :P

 

• Vulajin

The attack table functionality for white attacks is well known and I'm surprised you did not find the article on WoWWiki about it. White crits are pushed off the table by miss, dodge, parry, block, and glance. White hits are pushed off the table by miss, dodge, parry, block, glance, and crit.

 

Ambits

I had a quick question that has got me confused currently. According to the Rogue DPS chart in my gear I should be doing around 3700 DPS as mut, granted I know thats will full raid buffs and such but I'm just not seeing that number when I'm doing even heroic bosses. I'm seeing roughly around 2300 DPS and was wondering if anyone knows about how much more DPS the buffs would constitute for so I can figure out if I'm doing something wrong or if its just the buffs. I am not letting hunger for blood or snd ever drop, I'm just not sure whats going on. Any help would be appreciated. Also note the armory hasn't updated my chest as being the Darkheart Chestguard yet either.

Thanks

 

Killashandra

you can always go into the spreadsheet and turn off the buffs you don't have on you in a particular heroic. then you can see how close you are to the "ideal" DPS based on that.

 

Leto

Also, very few bosses, especially heroic bosses, are stand-still tank and spanks that would allow for maintenance of an optimal cycle. Don't forget that human error, latency, etc, all affect how close you can reach the theoretical max.

There are also a few factors that will result in lower dps than the spreadsheet represents, simply because they are not implemented yet:

• Boss armor is actually 13083, not the ~11000 set in the presumed latest version of the sheet.
• Partial resists on poisons are not accounted for. From my experience, this translates to roughly a 3.2% loss of instant poison dmg, and 5% loss of deadly poison dmg.
• Reduced chance to crit bosses are not included. This is newly being discovered, so the exact numbers are not yet known, but it seems to be somewhere around 4-5% crit lost.

Rogue at heart.

 

Ambits

Ok thanks. I figured it was still pretty good dps for the gear I had. Cannot check naxx yet as we are just fixing to start it in the upcoming weeks, our server is a lower population server. Still working on replacing out some of my gear and working on getting the hit rating up a bit more as well. Thanks for the heads up on this. Still kinda new to the spreadsheet as well.

 

Lord Xar

This is probably a medium factor in our subpar dps (compared to others). Armour mitigation is taking a toll on our already lackluster damage, but because of poison resists, another significant portion of our dps is gimped. As bleeds, poison resists and armour all reduce our damage considerably. I can't say for sure how other classes are affected, but it seems rogues moreso because we rely on different attack methods: melee, poison, bleeds etc.. Whereas other classes are gimped in perhaps one respect, we can potentially be gimped in 3 ways on any given boss. (casters can be gimped on spell resists, but its one layer of defense they have to overcome.)

 

Leto

I doubt that would make a huge difference in our dps relative to other classes, since they are all affected by those things themselves. Whether they are affected by multiple dmg loss mechanics should be irrelevant as long as each is evenly equipped to mitigate them.

Rogues are decently equipped to mitigate both forms of dmg loss, since precision and hit applies to poisons as well.

What I am curious about is what impact the master poisoner bug might have had on our balancing during beta.

I know mutilate dps received numerous nurfs through various patches (rightly so), but I wonder if they would have been so severe had master poisoner not been bugged. I guess that would depend on the relative benefits of the crit to rogues versus other classes, which is actually less than a few.


I'd also say we need to wait a little longer before comparing rogue dps to other classes in the grand scheme, as people are still gearing up at erratic rates, so the relative class balance is hard to see.

Rogue at heart.

 

Ambits

Anything else you see thats of concern in my items/build? I know I gotta replace the trinkets, mirror of truth is going to be my next purchase. I also know I gotta get the hit rating up quite a bit more but haven't been lucky enough to get the nice epic hit rating legs from Gundrak yet nor the gloves from UP. Any tips would be appreciated, I've been trying to read a lot on these forums and pickup as much as I can about learning to play my class better and become more knowledgeable with theory on the class.

 

Kumar

DPS comparison will be fruitful when the whole raid is in mostly naxx gear, it will be important to see how well various classes scale with the gear improvements.

But I agree with Xar that the armor mitigation is contributing to our lackluster damage. One of the things that happened towards the end of the beta was the increase in boss armor values to mitigate Hunter DPS (compared to other classes). I believe that also ended up affecting our DPS bringing it further down.

Specifcally speaking, this could be a big effect on our DPS, especially for Combat Builds which now depend on Crits for a good bit of damage (Prey on the Weak, SS Glyph). It would be interesting to see if more tests confirm this over the next few weeks.

I would add that Blizzard already said they are looking at Rogue PvE DPS performance right now. Quote:

 

Leto

Switch your faster dagger to the offhand, and possibly lose some of the expertise if you can since you're over the cap. Aside from that, you don't have many items with gems, so not much to comment on. Just keep doing heroics, etc, to upgrade you gear. Your low hit is mainly due to the gear you have. You get plenty of hit easily once you start getting epics.

Also, this thread isn't meant for requesting advice.

Go to the simple questions/answers thread for that.

Rogue at heart.

 

Paxs

I'm trying to figure out the best way to gem/enchant my gear so i was screwing around with the Rogue spreadsheet and it's showing pure attack power gems (bright) are superior for dps than pure agility (delicate) No matter what spec i am Pure ap is always better.

Just looking for some insight if i should trust the spreadsheet or the Wotlk pocket guide! thanks

 

Leto

It depends on your gear. I plugged in optimal available gear, and the difference between an ap and agi red gem was < 1 dps in favor of ap. In that case, personally I'd rather have more crit than ap, for more energy and tighter cycles.

Rogue at heart.

 

Rambaral

Yes, my hit was very low for mutilate spec -137- after getting three pieces in Naxx 25 in one run (good to be the sole rogue) I walked out with 113 more hit than when I walked in. It seems hit is pretty elusive until you see purple in wrath.

 

ekval

I wouldn't worry about hit personally. I'm running in quite decent Naxxramas gear with 160 hit rating from gear + 5/5 Precision with Combat Fists and yet the spreadsheet tells me to gem for AP/AGI. Even if I switch to Silent Crusader + Hailstorm with 5/5 Precision + 5/5 SSpec the spreadsheet tells me mostly to gem for AP/AGI.

 

Miskington

It's been debated that only hit capping your poisons at around 200 and then you just pump into the rest of your stats in this order, crit/ap/haste. What are your opinions on how beneficial this is to rogues instead of going for the hit cap? In a raid setting of course.

 

saedo

It hasn't been debated here at least. You just need to be aware of caps and the relative value of hit when you reach certain ones. Otherwise gear/gem with the best gear you can get. Use spreadsheets / ep values.

 

Naswyn

Why would you do that? It is my understanding (backed by the spreadsheet using current weapons, and some experimenting of my own) that you would want your fast dagger in the main-hand with IP on it, to maximize IP procs, and that would theoratically outweigh the damage loss you'd encounter from having the offhand penalty applied to your stronger hitting weapon.

For example, when I plug my current gear into the spreadsheet, with my weapons being Librarian's Paper Cutter (1.3) and Omen of Ruin (1.5), I end up netting 15 more DPS from having the faster dagger in the MH as opposed to offhanding it.

 

ekval

This have changed in past week and it has also been changed to newest spreadsheet.

 

Kjallstrom

I guess it's not strictly relevant to endgame, but I wouldn't mind a brief discussion of the Deflect mechanic (or perhaps a link to the relevant Hunter discussion?). I had no idea what it was, because I saw it for the first time from Fan of Knives, but I understand it to be a possible outcome of a ranged physical attack roll.

 

• Vulajin

There's pretty much no available information about it. I haven't been able to intuit any consistent behavior in the few times I've seen it occur. If anyone knows anything about Deflects, I'd love to know.

 

PessimiStick

It used to be "dodge" for ranged, but I don't think it's been an official mechanic since 1.x or before. For the infrequency that I've seen it, I'd say it's legacy code/fluke.

 

sephfiroth

I thought Deflects were ranged-attack Parrys.

The upside to Deflect, is that it doesn't grant 40% haste on next swing.