Radghr

A small mistake towards the end here: (115.5-66)/0.002=24750. So no it is unlikely that with one point in Improved Poisons you will ever be better of using Instant Poison rather than Wound Poison.
A correct table would be (Ignoring the improvement to Instant poison from possible envenoms):

Points in IP: 1 2 3 4 5
AP needed for Instant to beat Wound: 24750 10875 6250 3937.5 2550

Edit: It seems I had a mistake in my IP formula, refer to drumbums post below for accurate table.

 

drumbum

The correct damage formula for Instant Poison IX is 350 + 0.1*AP, not 300. The poison has a damage range from 300-400, not a static 300. This is a bug with the in-game tooltip.

The correct values where Instant Poison overtakes Wound Poison are:

Rank of Improved Poisons	Attack power
1	19250
2	7875
3	4084
4	2188
5	1050

 

Kjallstrom

If that's the case, then this is a mechanic that could be dummy tested after 3.0.8 hits and Fan of Knives becomes spammable (well, sorta spammable... if you can get 60 energy back in one GCD, I'd like to hear about it!). Vary your expertise, and over enough points the number of "other misses" (which is how Deflect seems to show up in WWS) should converge to your expertise-adjusted parry chance, right? And, if it doesn't, that at least gives a clue to what Deflect isn't.

 

Tinwhisker

Another clue as to what 'deflect' may be could be found in the new form of Deterrence that Hunters have on the PTR. The wording may or may not be significant but I do find it interesting.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

samandra

question.. what about mixing wepons ( fist+sword) should i go for the superior wepon or stick for 2 of same kind (sry if was talked about before and i missed somewere, but huge forum)

 

MasterDinadan

A single weapon spec combat build has 4 points worth of combat filler. If you spec for two weapon types, you throw all 4 points of filler into your off-hand weapon spec.
Fists make better main hands, and swords make better off-hands. The best DPS you can get with combat is, I think, a main hand fist and off-hand sword with 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword spec. This performs REALLY close to simply using fist/dagger and dropping sword spec. Your DPS barely changes and you get 4 extra points of fillers!

But to answer your question, mixing two different weapon types is entirely acceptable. You've got enough talent points to do it.

 

• Feist-Mok

This is entirely dependent on itemization. A fist/sword build would pull ahead if there were swords anywhere close to as well itemized as Webbed Death. The fact that that's not the case essentially invalidates the build outside of the most important piece of old tired advice which is "spec for the weapons you have, not for the weapons you want."

 

Mutilator

I am trying to make a smart macro that does a range and cooldown check before whispering my focus target that he will receive Tricks of the Trade. My macro knowledge isn't super but I come up with the above.

#showtooltip
/run local s="Tricks of the Trade" if GetSpellCooldown(s)==0 and IsUsableSpell(s) and IsSpellInRange(s, "focus") then SendChatMessage ("Tricks on you","WHISPER",nil,UnitName("focus")); end
/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade

The thing is that I can't get it to work properly with range check. It does not whisper my focus when TotT is on CD (great so far) but it whispers my focus when he is out of range and it shouldn’t. To cut the long story short I can’t get the range check to work.

Any help highly appreciated.

PS: Sorry for posting this query on the TTT Article but it seems the most relevant out of all the class threads that are open.

 

Raiid

You should refer to the wiki for the isspellinrange api.
API IsSpellInRange - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

I believe you need to tell the script what to do with the results of the range check. You are always going to get an isspellinrange output, it will either be a 1, 0 or nil, your macro appears to have it sending the whisper regardless of what the range check results are.

 

drumbum

(deleted)

 

Colgar

I don't intend to sound rude, but if you don't understand that not all programming or scripting languages behave the same then you probably are not qualified to offer innacurate and patronising comments.

Programming in Lua : 2.2

Raiid is right, you'll need to do something like:

IsSpellInRange(s, "focus")==1 and it should work.

Though yes, this isn't really appropriate to the current thread at all.

 

Raiid

That's exactly what I meant, his macro was doing the isspellinrange check, but he wasn't looking for the response, so it was sending the tell whether it came back as in range, out of range, or nil. I referred him to the wiki on that exact api he was using, so he could see how it was set up, without cluttering the thread further with a full explanation which didn't belong here in the first place.

 

saedo

What was the point of this? Complaining about the lack of hit? You're above the specials cap. You're above the poison cap if you have raid buffs. You're probably overestimating the value of hit nowadays if your goal is to merely have more. Go read http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/ at least.

 

madman

It could be useful if the article included a section on which buffs we "need" to do optimal damage, and who can provide them. Also, a bit about how to analyze WWS logs would be nice.

 

Adian

Information such as available buffs can be seen either here or by looking at any dps spreadsheet such as the one seen here.

If you are truely looking to optimize small features of your build/gemming/enchants/raid comp or any other feature I highly recommend getting the spreadsheet and looking at the above raid composition link.

In the End...we all meet the same Fate.

Adian <Overture>
http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/AdianTNG.png

 

Lucretius

Good afternoon fellow rogues,

I read these forums regularly, but can't seem to find a point of discussion that I think is important to visit.

Based on Shadowpanther's MAEP numbers (I realize not everyone may agree with the formulas, but for argument's sake and simplicity I am looking at Shadowpanther), the math tells us that rogues that want to maximize their DPS (for PvE Raiding) should always gem the following if they are a JC:
Red: Bright Dragon's Eye (+54 AP), or Bright Scarlet Ruby (+32 AP)
Blue: Bright Dragon's Eye (+54 AP), or Enchanted Tear (+6 to all stats), or Balanced Twilight Opal (+16 AP, +12 STA)
Yellow: Bright Dragon's Eye (+54 AP), or Pristine Monarch Topaz (+16 AP, +8 HR)

and if they are not a JC:
Red: Bright Scarlet Ruby (+32 AP)
Blue: Enchanted Tear (+6 to all stats), or Balanced Twilight Opal (+16 AP, +12 STA)
Yellow: Pristine Monarch Topaz (+16 AP, +8 HR)

Some of the calculations are very close to each other, but spreadsheets and previous analysis suggest Attack Power in particular, and agility to be more important.

HERE IS MY QUESTION:

Since Blizzard has adopted several mechanics to melee DPS such as Expertise, Haste, Armor Penetration etc... is it better to simply stick to the math and stack AP/AGI gems wherever possible, or is it more important to have at least certain minimums in every rating/mechanic? This is particularly important for JCs because we can cut and socket Dragon's Eyes.

For example, right now due to the drops I have in WOTLK, I am fairly descent in stats like HR, AP and AGI but my ArP is 0, and my haste is quite low. What I'm hoping to uncover here is whether or not this matters. In light of this, is it more important that I stack Haste or ArP, or keep gemming everything AP (or HR or Exp depending on my position vs. the caps)?

Are there suggested benchmarks we should strive for in each combat rating to help us prepare for current end-game raiding, or can we just stack as much AP as possible as the spreadsheets and EP weights suggest? Any comments here would be appreciated very much.

Again, please forgive me if this has been discussed in a previous thread. As I mentioned I do read the rogues threads here regularly but I just haven't been able to find one that deals with this topic in detail yet.

 

Adian

For the most part the AEP values dont change drasticly as you get better gear (one counter would be hit and expertise as you hti the caps but we all already know that). However from using the Roguecraft AEP calculator which takes your current stats and converts to your specific AEP values instead of the general versions which are on Shadowpanther, I have found that AGI carries alot more weight then it has in the past. With my ideal gear an Agi gem is slightly better then a AP gem. And with the change they made to ArP after the sillyness in Sunwell it is a stat that gains no real value in stacking and is something that right now will ever pass the other stats point for point. Haste is similar in that it is ok but you would never gem for it because its value will never suprass that of AP or AGI.

This is what i have at least discovered using the tools other people have provided on this very forum. If you are concerned alot about you AEP (i relize you mentioned MAEP) you should use the spreadsheets on these forums which caluclate them for you for every gear upgrade you get. They even link you wowhead gear sortings based on those specific AEP values (and tell you how to gem).

In the End...we all meet the same Fate.

Adian <Overture>
http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/AdianTNG.png

 

Lucretius

Thanks for the quick reply.

Well, I have been using the rogue spreadsheet posted here, and find it enormously useful but my question remains...

What is more beneficial to maximizing raid PvE DPS - stacking AGI/AP as much as possible, or ensuring with your gemming that you reach certain minimums in stats such as Armor Penetration, Crit and Haste (again we know what the caps are for Exp and HR).

And I guess the greater question I am trying to find an answer to is, why do we have gems such as Fractured Scarlet Ruby (+16 ArP) or Deft Monarch Topaz (+8 AGI, +8 Haste) if it makes no sense to ever socket them? What I am hoping to understand is whether or not there are diminishing returns on some of the "more important stats"

For example,

Considering all of the spreadsheets, EP, MAEP, AEP etc... formulas we have at our disposal, can we find a real way to identify if there is a difference between:

2000 AP
1000 AGI
800 Crit
200 Haste
200 ArP
(5720 EP)

and

2970 AP
1000 AGI
500 Crit
0 Haste
0 ArP
(5720 EP)

Or would they be exactly the same?

(Based on EP Weights for PvE Combat builds discussed here)

 

• Neto-

You need to stop taking EP/AEP/MAEP/whatever so literally. The spreadsheet will tell you what is better to gem for, and that's the best answer you can get to your questions.

Regarding your second question... Because World of Warcraft is a big game? I mean, the Armor Penetration gem is most definitely terrible for all classes, but hey, they made it just so it exists. I don't see how that question is relevant.

Now, on diminishing returns: hit rating does lose value as you get more, and so do other stats, that is why static EP values won't be extremely accurate but should be seen as rough values instead, since most of your stats scale in synergy.

 

Lucretius

Well, thanks to both of you for suggesting the spreadsheet takes my current stats into account (which i was not aware of).

It sounds like by your comment "Because World of Warcraft is a big game..." that you're suggesting that gems like the Fractured Scarlet Ruby are basically just crap-filler material, and that having above a "0" Armor Penetration rating really doesn't make any difference.

I appreciate your quick and friendly response.

 

Adian

Since I can’t really use your exact numbers (I don’t know enough about the AEP calculator macro) I will use different values as an example of what I mean.

Strength 385
Agility 1711
AP 6926
Hit Rating 275
Crit Rating 665
Expertise 42
Haste 280
Armor Pen 56

With these stats the AEP values are as such

2 Agility 2.00
2 Strength 1.14
2 AP 1.05
2 Hit Rating 1.41
2 Crit Rating 1.52
2 Exp Rating 1.32
2 Haste Rating 1.50
2 ArPen Rating 1.45

If I randomly change my gear around to reflect a different point in gear progression I will use the stats below

Strength 385
Agility 1207
AP 5582
Hit Rating 191
Crit Rating 499
Expertise 80
Haste 242
Armor Pen 0

With these we get the AEP values below

2 Agility 2.00
2 Strength 1.17
2 AP 1.07
2 Hit Rating 1.77
2 Crit Rating 1.47
2 Exp Rating 2.15
2 Haste Rating 1.37
2 ArPen Rating 1.26

And as a showing of Haste and ArP stacking we will use these stats

Strength 385
Agility 1227
AP 5826
Hit Rating 207
Crit Rating 232
Expertise 80
Haste 402
Armor Pen 206

With these we get the following AEP values.

2 Agility 2.00
2 Strength 1.12
2 AP 1.03
2 Hit Rating 1.79
2 Crit Rating 1.54
2 Exp Rating 2.15
2 Haste Rating 1.31
2 ArPen Rating 1.31

As you can see from these the value of Haste and ArP doesn’t change significantly until you get to much higher values of Agi/AP…but even then Agi is the superior point for point stat (don’t look at Exp cause I wasn’t caring about it when making mock gear setups). So what this shows me is that with at least the gear available now, there is no point at which ArP or Haste becomes better then Agi or AP (which usually comes in values 2x that of AP which is why its value is low).

I don’t know if this is the explanation you were looking for but hopefully it helps.

In the End...we all meet the same Fate.

Adian <Overture>
http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/AdianTNG.png

 

songster

Well, what that says to me is that haste rating is pretty weak as a stat, and armor pen is even worse. Other stats are more sane: you want hit to the yellow cap, then expertise, then hit to the poison cap, then agility/AP, but crit isn't far behind. Haste and ArPen are th outliers (strength aside, but strength is not a rogue stat.

Overall it seems slightly silly - as the OP says, it makes certain gems useless for all specs of all classes, and reduces meaningful gear choice. We know the devs are looking at the value of haste for melee. Question is whether they're doing the same for armor pen, which is even worse, and if not why not?

What's the value of armor pen like against higher or lower armor targets? Maybe it's intended as a PvP stats for use against plate / cloth wearers (delete as applicable).

 

• Aldriana

Well, I think part of the problem with Armor Pen - at least for rogues - is that we're starting to get significant portions of our damage from damage types that aren't mitigated by armor. Consider: a Mutilate rogue has an EP value for ArPen of around 1.1, but gets close to 45% of his damage from Envenom, Instant Poison, Deadly Poison, and Rupture; hence ArPen has a value of 1.1 while applying to 55% of your damage, it would be worth close to the same amount as Agi and AP if it applied to all of one's damage. So I think the theory is that ArPen is probably balanced around being a good stat for people who do predominantly physical damage, as opposed to rogues who really don't.

The secondary problem, of course, is that ArPen gets better the more you stack it, so if they balanced it such that it was pretty good and worth taking for most people, they might start running into problems with people stacking the crap out of it - particularly for warriors and some of the other classes that do more physical damage.

 

• Neto-

The armor penetration conversion is also terrible the way it is now. Making it a percentage and applying it post-raid debuffs means that the amount of armor reduced will be smaller the less armor the boss has, unlike TBC, where 300 Armor Penetration would reduce 300 from 10000 and 300 from 500, and reducing 300 from 500 would be a much bigger increase than 300 from 10000.

As far as I know, the armor reduction calculation is Armor / (Armor + Factor), where factor is 467.5 * AttackerLvl - 22167.5, or 15232.5. So, with 20% armor penetration and against a raidboss (13083 armor, 46% reduction), it is reduced to 40% reduction instead. However, if you add the armor reducing debuffs first (Faerie Fire and Sunder Armor, 1260 and 3925), you're at 7898 armor now, or 34% reduction, with 20% Armor Penetration, it is 29%. So yeah, as you can see, it's pretty bad now compared to when it was flat armor, as now, the lower the boss armor is doesn't make Armor Penetration that much better than before, unlike TBC where Armor Penetration would just get ridiculously better the closer to 0 armor you are. And not only that, a Mutilate Rogue's damage is only really about half mitigated physical damage, so we only benefit from half of it, and I don't think there's any class that actually benefits from it entirely.

Edit: didn't see the response, and that's how I thought the new Armor Penetration works - if it is wrong, please do correct me.

 

Demi9OD

Armor Pen seems like a much better stat for HaT rogues after they finish capping expertise. Haste, and hit are pretty worthless for a build centered around eviscerate damage.