I would find it unlikely that arpen would beat agility for a HaT rogue, or any other stat for that matter considering deadliness and sinister calling.

The gems also exist because I really don't think Blizzard foresees all these statweights for every possible use when adding new gemrecipes. Maybe some Hunter has a great idea and builds a PvP-something Spec that relies heavily on ArP for some reason. If that happens Blizz has provided the gems and everyone is happy. Also what about people who just plain like ArP and don't give a rats ass what those crazy "theory crafter" kids say in their jerky forums.

Blizzard includes these gems because figuring out what's best for your class is part of the game experience or simply called fun.

Agreed.

That said, thanks for all the replies. It does sound like there may be a use for ArP for HaT rogues. I just picked up [Maexxna's Femur] and may buy a [Titansteel Bonecrusher], and go Combat Mace/HaT build like this (I realize this spec is probably not perfect) to try it out.

If it works well it may actually be worth replacing hit gems with AGI or even ArP.

Considering that for a HaT build, Eviscerate is the main skill and it scales with AP, Agi/AP gemming would be best for them.

I don't see any case right now where gemming for ArP would overtake Agi/AP for all the three specs.

Any idea about the release of the complete TTT article please?

If you are only looking at eviscerate damage, ArP is the best stat, by a wide margin. For bugged HaT, ArP definitely has the potential to at least break even with Agi, if not pass it.

Edit: ignoring expertise, and the energy cost associated with a dodged eviscerate.

Thanks for your dedication

I currently use:
Webbed Death MH (IP)
Murder OH (DP)

I know faster weapons are better, so I'm wanting another Webbed Death sooner or later when it drops. But I checked it in the spreadsheet, and apparently Sinister Revenge is only about 2 DPS lower than Webbed Death in the OH. It's a large DPS increase over Murder.

Why is this? Is this accurate? Because I have a Sinister Revenge with Mongoose on it (for PvP) but with Berserking changes, I'll have no problem using it for PvE and PvP.

Because it has massively higher stats and DPS as a result of being a tier higher in quality than Webbed Death. It makes up for the difference in speed.

The same reason Murder is better than Librarian's Paper Cutter basically.

So you're saying Webbed Death MH/Sinister Revenge OH would be a great (or even perfect) combination?

I'd highly recommend you post in a different thread with a question like that. This thread does not pertain to that type of question, and you will not get the response you are looking for in here. Go to the 'Simple Questions/Answers' thread and post there for better assistance. You might also want to try using the search option, as I'm almost positive that you'll find something that can help you out.

I have read several posts/spread sheets that claim double Webbed Death/Webbed Death MH Sinister Revenge OH are ideal ,atm, for mutilate. The double Webbed Death only beats the other combo by a slight margin (from what i have generally seen).

These questions are all answerable with the spreadsheet and can show you a number that changes with different gear/buffs/talents.

Use either sheet and go with what it tells you to do.

Hello everyone. I am a long time reader but a first time poster. I have been following the poison scaling posts attempting to optimize my dps. I know it is off topic for the current discussion, oh well. Using simple napkin math I cannot see a point at which IP would scale better then WP or DP for combat rogues. Which seems to be contrary to what I am reading.

Here are the formulas that I used to figure the damage.
IP= 300*0.1*Attack Power =Damage per proc
WP= 231*0.04* Attack Power= Damage per proc
DP=296*0.08* Attack Power= Damage per stack over 12 seconds

I forget where I pulled those from but I am assuming that I didn’t mess that up. I put together a spreadsheet to just help me see that scaling with AP, Crit, weapon speed, and combat duration. It can be found here if anyone wants to check it out and see if I made a mistake. The green boxes on the right can be modified to fit your weapon profile, attack power, critical, and combat duration to see scaling. If I didn’t make a mistake then it would indicate that a combat rogue would get more dps from WP over IP with current obtainable AP. Making the best combination WP on the MH and DP on the OH. Please check my work and see if I have made any obscene errors.

With that being the case it seems that there needs to be a revision on blizzards part to help make other poisons more adaptable to attack power. It would be great if a TTT article was written for or contained a part that went over poison scaling and usage.

Happy to join the forum and hoping I’m helping rather than complaining. Any insight or corrections that need to be made to the sheet just let me know or do it yourself and post it for the rest of us.

PS I assume that a post like this would belong in this forum but if not let me know.

That's correct, and it's what we've always said around here; IP will never beat WP if you don't have Improved Poisons, as they scale exactly the same: 10% scaling at 20% application rate is equivalent to 50% application rate at 4% scaling (0.04*0.5 = 0.02, 0.1*0.2 = 0.02), and WP has higher base damage. Also, your Instant Poison formula is wrong - it does 350 + 0.1*Attack Power damage per proc, not 300. The tooltip is wrong.

Once you add a point in Improved Poisons, Instant Poison can outscale Wound - though not at reasonable Attack Power levels. With 5/5 Improved Poisons, only 1051 AP is needed for Instant to overtake Wound (105 + 0.03*AP damage versus 115.5 + 0.02*AP damage).

Wow. Yes, you're correct; I meant "+", not "*". Silly mistake.

With the latest version of the Optimal Mutilate Gear spreadsheet, the difference between using SR in OH and using WD is approximately 62 dps in favour of WD which is noticably less trivial than some of the (albeit anecdotal) PTR evidence suggested. Even murder is better in OH than SR. I have to confess Im surprised the opportunity wasn't taken with the 3.0.8 patch to re-itemise SR since as it stands, the current best ilvl dagger is only really "ideal" for PvP and FoK spam.

Regarding FoK, although people may shout at me for this, I do think it's overpowered as it currently stands. Don't get me wrong, it's great fun right now but it just isnt right we are happily out dpsing Mages in the AoE department. In last nights Naxx 25 I out trashed everyone (and I am one of those people that doesn't believe trash dps is important for rogues) and by no means was I trying particularly hard. I haven't been to the Mage forums but I doubt they are overly happy.

I was having a blast in Naxx this week as well and topping the meters by spamming one button 90% of the time. If they increased the energy cost or something I wouldn't be surprised.

Thanks for the corrections and insight. Is there a point which double instant poison would be greater than instant poison and deadly poison? If so are they dependent upon abilities that are obtainable by a combat rouge build? I can come up with a build that allows me to pick up improved poisons but seems to be sacrificing better dps talents in the combat tree. I was thinking something like 21/45/5. Sorry to ask questions that may already have been answered I just can’t find them in the threads.

That's not the nerf that's needed. FoK has two issues:

1) Ability to dump the starting energy bar in two GCDs = MASSIVE burst AoE, especially with Overkill
2) Energy returns from Focused Attacks means that damage per target increases with multiple targets


Factor 1 is just boneheaded, and is primarily responsible for the currently-observed numbers, given that most Naxx pulls die in 5-10 seconds.

Factor 2 is actually quite nifty, and distinguishes rogue AoE from other AoEs. Per Vulajin's figures, rogue sustained AoE damage (neglecting the initial burst) becomes better than single-target damage at around 3 mobs per pack, but does not equal caster AoE damage until there are 8-10 mobs in the pack. Now, I quite like the fact that we shouldn't be equal to casters on small AoE pulls, and so I approve of this scaling behaviour and would not like to see FoK removed from Focused Attacks. The problem is simply that it scales without limit.

The only nerf that is needed is to put a small cooldown on FoK, of around 3 seconds. This serves the dual function of stopping the initial burst being overpowered, and limiting the degree to which it can scale upwards with target number. It also prevents combat rogue AoE going absolutely insane with AR/Blade Flurry combo, which together quadruple your AoE output.

I would be very very grateful if someone could forward this post to the US Damage Dealing forums, so we can avoid a knee-jerk nerf making FoK useless again. A surgical approach is what's needed, not a sledgehammer.

It took Blizz long enough for this change, i wonder if its going to be reverted.

Rogues are still way behind other Classes, in some cases up to 1000 DPS and more.

So why not complaining about this kind of thing instead some Trash DPS?