WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion

chalon · 11/20/08, 7:39 PM

This thread is intended to discuss what our most optimal gear setups are. This is not intended to replace a spreadsheet for personal usage to figure out what upgrades are good for you, but instead give a guideline as to what items you should be looking out for.

In general I'm talking about currently known BiS combinations. So most of this will be 25 man gear, but where appropriate, I'll list 10 man gear as well.

Weapons
Combat: [Golden Saronite Dragon] for your main hand. There probably won't be a better MH than that discovered simply because it's 239. For off-hand, it's pretty safe to say it will be [Bladetwister].

Mutilate: For your MH dagger, you want [Fang of Oblivion]. For your OH dagger, you want [Bladetwister] as well.

HaT: Probably the same combo as Combat, but I don't really pay attention to HaT much.

Ranged: If you're sticking with Throwing Weapons, [Twirling Blades] is your best choice.

Armor
Set Piece Slots
The 4 piece T8 bonus is phenomenal, and we absolutely want to get it at all cost. This leaves one slot where we are likely going to run an off-set piece that's 239. Your 239 offset piece should be either [Embrace of the Gladiator], [Legguards of Cunning Deception], or [Shoulderpads of the Intruder]

Non-Set Piece Slots
It's going to depend on your spec a bit. For example, ArPen is substantially better for Combat than for Mutilate, so YMMV.

Gems (Mutilate)
Red: If not Expertise capped, [Precise Scarlet Ruby]. Otherwise, [Delicate Scarlet Ruby] or [Bright Scarlet Ruby].
Yellow: If below poison hit cap, either [Glinting Monarch Topaz] or [Accurate Monarch Topaz]. Otherwise, [Deadly Monarch Topaz].
Blue: If you're a JC, [Delicate Dragon's Eye] or [Bright Dragon's Eye]. If you're not and you need it for your Meta, go with either [Balanced Twilight Opal] or [Guardian's Twilight Opal]. Otherwise, socket red.

Best in Slot Cheat Sheet
Note, the Combat BiS setup is post instituting the 100% ArP cap which Ghostcrawler has implied they will be adding. Thanks to Aldriana for compiling this chart. Further discussion regarding this here.

Slot	Mutilate	Combat	Combat 2
Helm	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet]
Helm Gems	16 agi + RED	16 ArPen + RED	16 agi + RED
Neck	[Pendulum of Infinity]	[Pendulum of Infinity]	[Pendulum of Infinity]
Neck Gems	27 agi	27 ArPen	27 agi
Shoulder	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Pauldrons]
Shoulder Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
Cloak	[Drape of the Faceless General]	[Drape of the Faceless General]	[Drape of the Faceless General]
Cloak Gems	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit	16 ArPen + 8 agi/8 crit	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit
Chest	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate]	[Embrace of the Gladiator]	[Embrace of the Gladiator]
Chest Gems	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit	16 ArPen + 8 agi/8 crit	16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit
Bracers	[Solar Bindings]	[Solar Bindings]	[Solar Bindings]
Bracer Gems	8 agi/8 crit	8 agi/8 crit	8 agi/8 crit
Gloves	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets]
Glove Gems	20 agi	20 agi	20 agi
Belt	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]
Belt Gems	16agi x2	16ArPenx2	16agi x2
Legs	[Legguards of Cunning Deception]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates]	[Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates]
Leg Gems	16 agi + 8agi/8crit + 27 agi	16 ArPen + 8agi/8crit	16 agi + 8agi/8crit
Boots	[Footpads of Silence]	[Footpads of Silence]	[Footpads of Silence]
Boot Gems	16 agi + 27 agi	16 ArPen + 27 ArPen	16 agi + 27 agi
Ring1	[Brann's Signet Ring]	[Brann's Signet Ring]	[Brann's Signet Ring]
Ring1 Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
Ring2	[Band of Lights]	[Band of Lights]	[Band of Lights]
Ring2 Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi
Trinket1	Comet's Trail	[Mjolnir Runestone]	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Trinket2	[Blood of the Old God]/[Dark Matter]	Comet's Trail	Comet's Trail
Ranged	[Skyforge Crossbow]	[Twirling Blades]	[Giant's Bane]
Ranged Socket	-	16 ArPen	-
MH	[Fang of Oblivion]	[Golden Saronite Dragon]	[Golden Saronite Dragon]
MH Gem	8 agi/8 crit	16 ArPen	8 agi/8 crit
OH	[Bladetwister]	[Bladetwister]	[Bladetwister]
OH Gems	16 agi	16 ArPen	16 agi

Bues · 11/21/08, 2:14 AM

So, say if you were to get the 2 best swords currently available, would Fist/Dagger still be the better combo? Or would swords come out better?

Latito · 11/21/08, 3:40 AM

These findings are all quite close to mine, although I think a few pieces have a bit more gap than you make out (Neck, Cloak for example). What level of gems were you using? Blue quality? For the gearing, did you find any notable differences (1 item is better for Mutilate, but worse for Combat) between specs?

Also, you put the Shanker pvp weapon in there a lot, did you mean [Deadly Gladiator's Shiv]?

Imiut · 11/21/08, 4:27 AM

Add a ranged weapon for good measure (I prefer [Spinning Fate]).

chalon · 11/21/08, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bues

So, say if you were to get the 2 best swords currently available, would Fist/Dagger still be the better combo? Or would swords come out better?

The [Calamity's Grasp]/[Webbed Death] combo is better than the two best swords currently available.

Originally Posted by Latito

These findings are all quite close to mine, although I think a few pieces have a bit more gap than you make out (Neck, Cloak for example). What level of gems were you using? Blue quality? For the gearing, did you find any notable differences (1 item is better for Mutilate, but worse for Combat) between specs?

Also, you put the Shanker pvp weapon in there a lot, did you mean [Deadly Gladiator's Shiv]?

Yeah, I meant the Shiv. I'll fix that up. As for Combat vs. Mutilate, honestly the EP weights are close enough that while there will be some pieces slightly better for one instead of the other, I don't think you're going to see huge gear gaps develop between the listed items.

And yes, this is assuming you're just using the standard blue gems currently available. It doesn't take into account JC gems.

Lieto · 11/21/08, 5:36 AM

So basically you copy/pasted http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm for us or what? -)

MissnL1nK · 11/21/08, 7:47 AM

From the looks of the gear that I have seen I am coming to a sad realization that Mutilate is going to outdmg Combat. I still have trouble soaking this concept in due to years of Combat dominance but I guess over time things change.

Yellek · 11/21/08, 8:19 AM

I know this discussion is geared more towards 25-man items drops, but I found [Tears of Bitter Anguish] while questing the other day. How well would this stack up with the other badge/drop trinkets from Naxx?

It appears the item is currently not in Wowhead's database. Its stats are EQUIP: Improves haste rating by 73. EQUIP: Chance on critical hit to increase your haste rating by 410 for 10 secs.

Leto · 11/21/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by MissnL1nK

From the looks of the gear that I have seen I am coming to a sad realization that Mutilate is going to outdmg Combat. I still have trouble soaking this concept in due to years of Combat dominance but I guess over time things change.

I've tried both in raids since hitting 80, and my anecdotal experience so far is that mutilate handily does more dps on a static, single target fight, while combat has the advantage on fights with lots of adds due to much less of a cycle ramp up and improved aoe abilities.

Combat can also pull close on single target depending on the length of the fight, as it is heavily reliant upon cool downs, so the shorter the better.

All just my experience though.

Originally Posted by Lieto

So basically you copy/pasted http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm for us or what? -)

Looks like the same recommendations except for the trinkets. That makes sense, since trinket value is harder to quantify.

Alexsiss · 11/21/08, 10:53 AM

Tears of anguish should be far below the Sapph trinket if my math is right. Then again its a boe so its really good for being boe.

Also love the flavor text lol

chalon · 11/21/08, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Imiut

Add a ranged weapon for good measure (I prefer [Spinning Fate]).

Yeah, well [Spinning Fate] is hands down the way to go I'd imagine. While the KT gun is theoretically a little better, it not being a throwing weapon makes it a bit undesirable for me. Though, I guess you really aren't going to be using Deadly Throw in PvE much.

Originally Posted by Lieto

So basically you copy/pasted http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm for us or what? -)

Doesn't surprise me the conclusions would be roughly similar, given that we probably used similar EP weights. FWIW, the Wowhead weighting filter is immensely useful (especially with custom weights).

Originally Posted by Yellek

I know this discussion is geared more towards 25-man items drops, but I found [Tears of Bitter Anguish] while questing the other day. How well would this stack up with the other badge/drop trinkets from Naxx?

It appears the item is currently not in Wowhead's database. Its stats are EQUIP: Improves haste rating by 73. EQUIP: Chance on critical hit to increase your haste rating by 410 for 10 secs.

It'd depend on what the internal cooldown was.

Originally Posted by Leto

I've tried both in raids since hitting 80, and my anecdotal experience so far is that mutilate handily does more dps on a static, single target fight, while combat has the advantage on fights with lots of adds due to much less of a cycle ramp up and improved aoe abilities.

Combat can also pull close on single target depending on the length of the fight, as it is heavily reliant upon cool downs, so the shorter the better.

All just my experience though.

If it's a murderable boss, Combat is going to have a really, really hard time winning. Combat has an advantage on many add fights not only due to the reasons you listed, but because their FoK will hit for effectively 2x the damage given the current implementation.

As for Combat, they do really well on short fights, as well as fights where their CDs line up well (a fight like P2 KT where you're fighting him for maybe 6.5 minutes or more, so you get two ARs).

MissnL1nK · 11/21/08, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

If it's a murderable boss, Combat is going to have a really, really hard time winning. Combat has an advantage on many add fights not only due to the reasons you listed, but because their FoK will hit for effectively 2x the damage given the current implementation.

As for Combat, they do really well on short fights, as well as fights where their CDs line up well (a fight like P2 KT where you're fighting him for maybe 6.5 minutes or more, so you get two ARs).

My only issue with Combat right now, which is my personal favorite I might add, is the lack high dps swords available when compared to the current daggers you can obtain. Even if Combat was a slightly stronger tree, I still think Mut would come out on top due to the weapons available to us atm.

chalon · 11/21/08, 12:53 PM

There certainly is a hole sword itemization. But that doesn't prevent you from running 5/5 CQC Fist/Dagger combat.

Hanos · 11/21/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

I've tried both in raids since hitting 80, and my anecdotal experience so far is that mutilate handily does more dps on a static, single target fight, while combat has the advantage on fights with lots of adds due to much less of a cycle ramp up and improved aoe abilities.

Combat can also pull close on single target depending on the length of the fight, as it is heavily reliant upon cool downs, so the shorter the better.

All just my experience though.

In any stationary fight on a murderable target Mutilate is going to come out ahead assuming the same gear and weapon levels, however on targets that are not murderable the difference is non-existant, and combat provides a lot of additional utility and causes FoB to hit significantly harder. Right now the main issue I have seen with Mutilate is that right now we are having debuff issues where Deadly Poison is getting knocked off, and without the ability to use Deadly Poison or Envenom the DPS from a Mutilate spec really takes a nose dive.

For everything posted above I got essentially the exact same results, however it is kind of a "take what drops" mentality right now. Ideal set is 4 piece T7.25 with the Sartharion legs, however 4 piece with the Malygos chest and 4 piece with the Malygos gloves are both very close. We got a chest on each of our first 2 kills, no legs and no gloves, so I picked up the chest, and we got the BoE gloves off Sapp, so I grabbed those because they are still significantly better then the Sunwell crafted ones.

The bottomline right now is take what you can, don't go over the expertise cap (which I currently am, until I can get a different belt), and then fill in the ideal pieces when you can. Everything is a 60+ DPS upgrade currently, the difference between 60 and 65 isn't worth stressing over and anyone who lets a 60 DPS upgrade rot or go offspec needs to have their head examined.

chalon · 11/21/08, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Yellek

I know this discussion is geared more towards 25-man items drops, but I found [Tears of Bitter Anguish] while questing the other day. How well would this stack up with the other badge/drop trinkets from Naxx?

It appears the item is currently not in Wowhead's database. Its stats are EQUIP: Improves haste rating by 73. EQUIP: Chance on critical hit to increase your haste rating by 410 for 10 secs.

If we assume a 45s internal cooldown, and that it procs at a fairly high rate, it would weigh in at about 225 EP for both Mutilate and Combat, using the "starting point" EPs posted in the simple questions thread. This puts it fairly low on the list, as compared to: PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

As for [Meteorite Whetstone] in case anyone's wondering, if again you assume 45s internal cooldown and that it procs when it can, you're looking at an EP weight of ~256 for Mutilate, and ~249 for Combat. Which makes it a respectable choice until you can get other trinkets.