Min-Maxing (as best as I could) with 7/51/13 Combat, 1/2 Imp SnD 5/5CQC and 5/5 Sword Spec, SS/Rupture/BF Glyphs and 4s/5r rotation, the best I could get to was 5095. Using LW and Enchanter enchants where applicable.
One potential is the difference in races/professions. I didn't do default buffs either. I went through and added all the ones I could get in our raids. Do you use Scrolls?
One potential is the difference in races/professions. I didn't do default buffs either. I went through and added all the ones I could get in our raids. Do you use Scrolls?
If I add a Scroll of Agility VI, its 5123.51, but I don't use Scrolls during raid fights, so yea close enough with the scrolls. But then as Alliance you also have access to Heroic Presence, with that and scrolls its 5149 for me. So yea the difference is Race/Professions.
Alright, posting my findings here on the best possible setup, currently, for a combat rogue. I've tested both 7/51/13 and 15/51/5, as well as the various high end weapon drops. Gems are listed in order of socketing, from top to bottom.
The Glyphs are: Sinister Strike, Rupture, and Adrenaline Rush (changed from SnD)
Cycle: 5s/5r/5e (evis)
Spec: 15/51/5 Combat, 4/5 Sword Spec
Professions: Leatherworking, Jewelcrafting.
Race: Blood Elf
Poisons: MH Wound, OH Deadly.
Buff Food: Blackened Dragonfin (+40 Agility)
Using Tricks on Cooldown: No.
Using the 0.4.3 spreadsheet within my own gear, idealized target gear, and others idealized target gear I have noticed that [Grim Toll] is performing better than [Fury of the Five Flights] by a margin of about 13 DPS on a six minute fight (and on shorter fights I can only imagine that it performs better due to the buildup time on FotFF). For example, using Haoli's gear configuration (with some tweaks, Delicate->Bright in some places) I come up with 5262.60 with FotFF and 5275.83 using Grim Toll.
Why did you use an AP gem here instead of agility which you used for the other red slots?
Maybe it is because he reached a point where the value of the stats changed.
In my experience using the spreadsheet the value of the stats do not stay the same as the stats raise with new gear. At the point that I am at though the difference in AP or AGI gem is very small on the spreadsheet but AP does come out very slightly ahead.
I would agree with the assessment that Grim Toll seems to be better than FotFF. I plugged in Grim Toll, and received a new maximum of 5280.12 dps.
At high gear levels for this content, the balance between AP and Agility gemming seems to be constantly shifting. For min-maxing purposes I would check every gem slot individually to see what comes out ahead.
It also seems to be related to the 15/51/5 build, with the 7/51/13 build, AP germs have stayed ahead of Agi gems for all gear levels till now for me in the spreadsheet.
In hindsight, i question the usage of the Adrenaline Rush glyph for it's KSpree CD reduction. By my numbers, approximately half of the fights available in current content are those in which using KSpree is either a phenomenally bad idea (Thaddius) or wherein there are complications in the fight that make its usage difficult or potentially undesirable (like jumping to adds, or a spore on Loatheb and causing others to not receive the crit buff.)
For pure numbers, it seems to be great. However, with the limitations, I'm not entirely convinced it's a wise choice.
I've been reading through the forums for this particular answer and have been unable to find a conclusive answer on it. This thread seems the most appropiate place to ask my question though, so here goes:
All this information is using the 51/13/7 Mutilate Build, envenom rupture cycle.
I've been trying to figure out if 2x[Webbed Death] with Berserking on both would be better. Since I don't want to spend the money to get a third Berserking enchant to test this I've been looking at Aldriana's Optimal Mutilate Gear Spreadsheet and Vualjin's Roguecraft Spreadsheet 0.4.3.
Aldriana's models 2x[Webbed Death] as 37 dps higher than using Sinister Revenge. Vualjin's models the Sinister Revenge configuration at 26 dps higher than 2x[Webbed Death]. I have configured Vualjin's spreadsheet with my gear and with the same gear as is in Aldriana's spreadsheet.
The playtesting I did do I did with Greater Potency on my second webbed death. In two 5 minute tests the Sinister Revenge produced 200 dps more than 2x[Webbed Death]. This is much more than the spreadsheets model just a Berserking enchant at.
Does anybody have conclusive evidence that one weapon configuration will yield more dps than the other?
Does anybody have conclusive evidence that one weapon configuration will yield more dps than the other?
If there was conclusive proof, one of the spreadsheet authors would have changed their sheet.
As it stands now, both sheets model a few things slightly differently and it's not been proven which is correct (they may both be wrong).
Either way it's a moot point as you don't want to spend the gold on yet another Berserking (I don't blame you) and that may be the best conclusion to be drawn right there.
I've been reading through the forums for this particular answer and have been unable to find a conclusive answer on it. This thread seems the most appropiate place to ask my question though, so here goes:
All this information is using the 51/13/7 Mutilate Build, envenom rupture cycle.
I've been trying to figure out if 2x[Webbed Death] with Berserking on both would be better. Since I don't want to spend the money to get a third Berserking enchant to test this I've been looking at Aldriana's Optimal Mutilate Gear Spreadsheet and Vualjin's Roguecraft Spreadsheet 0.4.3.
Aldriana's models 2x[Webbed Death] as 37 dps higher than using Sinister Revenge. Vualjin's models the Sinister Revenge configuration at 26 dps higher than 2x[Webbed Death]. I have configured Vualjin's spreadsheet with my gear and with the same gear as is in Aldriana's spreadsheet.
The playtesting I did do I did with Greater Potency on my second webbed death. In two 5 minute tests the Sinister Revenge produced 200 dps more than 2x[Webbed Death]. This is much more than the spreadsheets model just a Berserking enchant at.
Does anybody have conclusive evidence that one weapon configuration will yield more dps than the other?
Thanks in advance.
Aldriana's sheet is likely more accurate for modeling mutilate cycles, so it is likely that webbed death will yield more dps.
One thing to note though is that tests alone on the dummy won't be valuable, since webbed death mainly pulls ahead due to poison dmg and focused attacks. Raid buffs contribute a significant part of your dps to the point where you very well may do more dps with sinister revenge unbuffed, but more with webbed death raid buffed.
In hindsight, i question the usage of the Adrenaline Rush glyph for it's KSpree CD reduction. By my numbers, approximately half of the fights available in current content are those in which using KSpree is either a phenomenally bad idea (Thaddius) or wherein there are complications in the fight that make its usage difficult or potentially undesirable (like jumping to adds, or a spore on Loatheb and causing others to not receive the crit buff.)
For pure numbers, it seems to be great. However, with the limitations, I'm not entirely convinced it's a wise choice.
Half the fights? Well let's see.
Anub - viable, use it before scarabs
Faerlina - viable, use it after boss is separated
Maexxena - viable, use it before spider adds
Patchwerk - viable
Grobbulus - viable, use it before slimes
Gluth - viable, zombies should never be near boss
Thaddius - not viable too risky
Noth - viable, based on positioning of adds
Heigan - viable
Loatheb - viable, kill spores before they even approach boss
Instructor - viable, use it after the adds been separated
Gothik - viable when he's down, otherwise it's just a trash fight
4 Horsemen - viable
Sapphiron - viable, usable when he takes flight to avoid tail swipes, there is a slight knockback
Kel'thuzad - viable, use after each frost blast
Sartharion - viable, occasional flame adds do get close but no prob most of the time
Malygos - viable, vortex escape
So I'd say I can use it in 16/17 fights perfectly fine. Though yes, I do have to give it some thought and watch timers and surroundings before pushing it. Of those, only Noth is a semi prob for me when we tank adds near boss for splash damage. It's def not a brainless spam button.
Anub - viable, use it before scarabs
Faerlina - viable, use it after boss is separated
Maexxena - viable, use it before spider adds
Patchwerk - viable
Grobbulus - viable, use it before slimes
Gluth - viable, zombies should never be near boss
Thaddius - not viable too risky
Noth - viable, based on positioning of adds
Heigan - viable
Loatheb - viable, kill spores before they even approach boss
Instructor - viable, use it after the adds been separated
Gothik - viable when he's down, otherwise it's just a trash fight
4 Horsemen - viable
Sapphiron - viable, usable when he takes flight to avoid tail swipes, there is a slight knockback
Kel'thuzad - viable, use after each frost blast
Sartharion - viable, occasional flame adds do get close but no prob most of the time
Malygos - viable, vortex escape
So I'd say I can use it in 16/17 fights perfectly fine. Though yes, I do have to give it some thought and watch timers and surroundings before pushing it. Of those, only Noth is a semi prob for me when we tank adds near boss for splash damage. It's def not a brainless spam button.
The point isn't whether or not you CAN find a way to make the damn thing work without killing yourself. The point is that it's a damn 51 point talent, and no one else has one that is very likely to get them killed on many boss fights unless an exceptional amount of consideration is put into how recently the boss has breathed, cleaved, or tail-whipped. It is not unreasonable to ask this.
Not to mention it's freaking awesome to be DPSing one of the Sartharion drakes, pop KS, have him immediately spawn a void zone under you, which you can't get out of because you're in the middle of KS, and then die. Bad luck? Probably. But it's still really frustrating to have to roll the dice every time I use it on certain fights on whether or not I'll die.
No, whether you *can* make the ability work is exactly the point. It's a very powerful ability when used at the right time - but it *is* circumstantial. You can't just mash it on cooldown on every fight and expect it to do the right thing. Yes, it requires awareness of the fight to use properly - but that's true of any cooldown. If you pop AR right as Sapphiron is taking off, you're not going to get the results you want.
That said, I think Saedo's list is perhaps a bit generous - I would argue that Sapph and Instructor are perhaps somewhat implausible - but, all in all, there are a lot of fights when you can use it if you simply pay attention.
Now, it's also true that there are better 51 point talents out there - but there are a lot of worse ones, too. 51 point talents aren't supposed to be "I win" buttons. They're supposed to be powerful abilities if used correctly. And KSp is definitely within that category.
It's also worth mentioning that Killing Spree, while "unusable" in some scenarios, can also be very advantageous in others, such as using it to break Vortex, or to teleport back after a knockback (I'm not sure it if works on Sapphiron, but it used to on Archimonde).
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
As Kspree certainly is something you can't spam on CD due to energy capping alone, how long would be the interval be between uses before SnD glyph starts overtaking it again?
And in reply to Andeh: what would you rather have? A simple dps boost like Surprise Attacks, or a completely new mechanic like Killing Spree, which has it's own possibilities, downfalls, exploits, and usages?
EDIT: Neto: if you mean the tail swipe knockback, then you should have a lot better reflexes than me to even try it, flight phase knockback it's possible, but it's also quite risky to hang around that far from worst-case ice cubes imo.
"...vincer potero dentro a me l'ardore
ch'i' ebbi a divenir del mondo esperto
e de li vizi umani e del valore"
That said, I think Saedo's list is perhaps a bit generous - I would argue that Sapph and Instructor are perhaps somewhat implausible - but, all in all, there are a lot of fights when you can use it if you simply pay attention.
I fail to see why either fight is an issue with Killing Spree to be honest. On Sapphiron, I hold down strafe right during Killing Spree and am pulled out of Sapphirons hitbox before the knockback occurs - it's only problematic to use if a blizzard is right there in the middle, which goes back to simply being aware before usage. As to Razuvious, the non-MC'd adds should be tanked far enough away from Raz to avoid getting jumped to them anyway - there's no reason not to with 20 yard taunt ranges and the large quantity of splash damage flying out from core rotation or cooldown spells from a number of classes (Living Bomb, Blade Flurry, etc.).
The main issues I've run into with Killing Sprees usability are on Thaddius and Sarth + Drakes. The former case is pretty obvious (though I have successfully popped it during a polarity shifts cast before, it's generally not worth the risk really), and the latter is mainly an issue due to the aforementioned circumstance of it plopping you right in the middle of a void zone and being unable to move out in time.
12/30/08, 2:48 PM
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