Capek

EDIT: My opera mini loaded only half a page, leading me to believe I was responding to the most recent post. Apologies, what I said was said better by others before me.
I'll leave my comment in for transparency's sake.
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I think the point was actually that the currently bugged AR glyph shortens the cooldown on killing spree to 1 minute but is not worth taking if the situation prevents you from capitalising on it.

Saedo, would you say of those 16/17 bosses you can use an AR-glyphed Killing Spree as many times as there are minutes in the fight? Or does Haoli's comment have more weight than your boss list suggests?

 

• Neto-

Well, I haven't tried it yet... but unless you get stunned by the tail swipe, considering how gigantic Sapphiron's hitbox is, it shouldn't be too hard to squeeze a KSpree before you get out of the 10 yards range. Besides, you can also use it just after he Cleaves, as Cleave has cooldown (not sure on that one, but I've never seen two cleaves back to back).

And yes, you should be able to use it once a minute, or at least close to 60 seconds between them. Also, for Sartharion +X, using it as the tank is moving the drake should keep you safe, but honestly, I think Void Zones take 5 seconds to explode? Or something like that. The chance that one pops right as you use Killing Spree is rather slim.

 

saedo

Well to touch on Sapphiron for Killing Spree again. You can use it when he's taking off. It happens 45 sec into the fight, so yea can't use it to start off with. It takes pretty much a full 10 sec before he's up in the air, and during that time there are no Tail Whips. So if you pop it just at take off, you won't be taken up with him, you'll only be hitting him while he's relatively close to the ground and still have plenty of time to run out for an ice block. There is a slight push back during that time, but it's not lethal, again if you pop it early as he's taking off.

Instructor I don't really see a problem unless you're tanking extra adds fairly close to the boss. You won't be targetting mind controlled ones.

For Sartharion, sure maybe it's a bit of is luck with Voids. But again timing it is possible, hear people telling others about Void Zones not near you. KS time.

All in all it does take a bit of a learning curve to properly assess when you can use it. Know the abilities, the CDs, the timers, the location of things being tanked. I didn't bother with KS for weeks on Sapphiron after that first tail whip sent me flying back. But seeing the fight all this time, noticing the timers, I found the 60 sec CD was perfect for use whenever he starts to take flight. Sure it bounces you back a bit, but that's just fine, takes me out of the blue circle at the end of KS so I can start running for Ice Block targets.


I would say Kel'thuzad is the only fight on that list I wouldn't be able to use it almost every CD. Unless I'm feeling frisky. I tend to try to wait for a Frost Blast to occur first, but on some fights it seems to take forever. It supposedly only has a 5 sec CD, but I've been in some fights where I only seen him use it 2-3 times.

And I suppose Sapphiron a bit, since I wait out the first 45 sec for air phase before I use KS. That's possibly another missing one.

 

yumepenguin

I have a question about which piece to use to fill the 5th slot after I have 4pc T7.

Say I have 5/5 T7 right now. My three options to replace are [Chestguard of the Recluse], [Frosted Adroit Handguards], and [Leggings of the Honored].

Using the spreadsheets (Aldriana's Optimal Mutilate and Vualjin's 0.4.3) [Chestguard of the Recluse] comes out ahead of [Frosted Adroit Handguards] finally followed by [Leggings of the Honored].

I was wondering if anybody had any practical experience for the choices between these three?

Edit: misspelled Handguards

 

songster

Take whichever one drops first. And then leave the others for the rest of the rogues in your guild, unless you want to look like a douche.

 

Inkm

Since the spreadsheets are designed to answer just these kinds of questions since practical testing is often too hard too do, I'd highly recommend doing what most of us do; use the sheets and trust the results .

As in; I'd use the chestguard. No question about it. Very hard to get a good stat balance with current itemization without it.

 

Tinwhisker

If you have a choice, I recommend the chest.

I took the one that was available to me first (the gloves); as such, I'll be passing on the chest until it isn't needed by feral tanks (who it is also best in slot for I believe) and other rogues.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

◊ chalon

The thing I really like about the chest is it allows you to socket all your yellow gems with Deadly Monarch Topazes, instead of needing to socket Accurate ones (which force you to get your hit rating higher than you'd optimally like).

Additionally, if you are a JC, Valorous Helm, Chest, and Legs is 3 Blue sockets by themselves, and then if you add in a Favor of the Dragon Queen, you end up with a 4th one, which means one of those pieces won't give you the socket bonus (since you're limited to 3 prismatics). Thus the only option where you have exactly 3 blue sockets in your gear would be to get [Chestguard of the Recluse].

It would be great if the ArP in Chestguard was itemized differently, but it still makes hitting Expertise Cap a lot more manageable.

 

Leto

I'd imagine the armor pen is there so that the first chest you see in ulduar with exp on it will be an upgrade.

Rogue at heart.

 

Shinoby

I just quickly skimmed through the pages in this thread and I don't think I found an answer to my question so here goes: Has anyone had conclusive testing on which exact poisons, via mutilate spec, is more dps? Whether it's double instant(assuming target stays poisoned from hunters/other rogues for mutilate bonus), wound MH, instant OH, using Eviscerate over Envenom for obvious reasons on those 2 combinations, or stick strictly with the basic deadly MH, instant OH Envenom finisher? I think I found a flaw in the spreadsheet as well, b/c when I input wound poison MH with instant poison OH, my dps goes up by 95. However, that is still using Envenom-True, which we all know is impossible if you're not using Deadly Poison. When switched to Envenom-False, it drops back down more than 125 dps. So basically what I'm lookin for is if anyone has testing the 3 different possible poison combinations in a 25 man raid environment (all the buffs, debuffs, etc.) and come to any conclusion on which is the highest dps possibility? Also, I'm currently using dual Webbed Death's if that helps at all.

 

Taffer

The reason for that is that the spreadsheet simply doesn't check those things. You can set it to envenom without using deadly poison; you can set it to mutilate without having the actual mutilate talent, etc. These are all things you have to manually make sure are set right, or you'll get the wrong results.

 

◊ chalon

This isn't really the right thread for this discussion, but at the moment it's Instant on your faster weapon in the OH, and Deadly on your slower weapon in the MH. A big reason why Envenom is better is due to the increased poison procs you'll get. In the next patch, with the Mutilate 2x OH proc bug being fixed, you'll want to swap your weapons.

 

Shinoby

post-patch - swap weapons but still keep instant on faster one correct? Because i currently have dual webbed death as it is. To my knowledge this is a better combination than sin. revenge + webbed death

 

Mideci

As has been discussed several times, one spreadsheet says yes, one spreadsheet says no. I'm fairly sure with most gear combinations, both spreadsheets say they are close.

 

Haoli

Spreadsheets have not yet been updated for post-patch conditions that affect the value of mutilate weapons because, <gasp>, the patch hasn't arrived yet!

Therefore, his question is still a valid one.

 

saedo

Previous versions of the spreadsheets did however show the values without such bug. So his answer is still valid.

 

• Rerox

I am still wondering, why [Grim Toll] has made such a jump to the top in trinket evaluation (for my gear, second-best in slot after [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]). Most posts to this topic in this thread were rather inconclusive.

Can anyone explain why GT is sudenly valued higher by newes spreadsheet versions (at least for 15/51/5 Builds), than FotFF or MoT?

 

Relk

Usually the spreadsheet will show [Grim Toll] as 2nd best if the current gear you have displayed hasnt brought you to the hit cap yet. Once you have the optimal gear in all slots and you are up to the hit cap, FotFF should come out ahead DPS wise still.

 

wintermuteCF

Which hit cap - specials, poisons, or white? Because Vulajin's spreadsheet in my gear (armoury link is active) places GT above FotFF by about 11 DPS (.25%). I'm over the poison hit cap (assuming shadowpriest, which I always have in a raid) at 250 hit without, 339 hit with GT.

 

Relk

It may be a little harder for me to comment on this without knowing what spec and what other gear you are currently running. When I plug [Grim Toll] into my spreadsheet over FotFF I lose 28 DPS (when paired with Darkmoon Card: Greatness.

This includes being 5/5 Valorous, using Sinister Revenge and Webbed Death using 51/13/7 Mutilate. I would say to go off of whatever the spreadsheet tells you to use for your spec and gear setup, its usually always right. I haven't read anywhere about there being a calculation error, so its probably right on target.

 

• Rerox

Seems like GT moves ahead of FotFF with Combat Builds and fall behind with Mutilate Builds.

 

Almehym

If any build would make good use of it, it wouldn't be mutilate. All the damage that is unmitigated by armor would serve to dilute the proc of the trinket by a great deal. That combined with the lesser static value of hit rating vs crit rating, etc etc. serves to make this trinket not nearly as good as MoT or FoFF.

 

• Rerox

I can only tell what spreadsheet tells me. And it tells me Grim Toll is better for a Combat Build with my current equipment than MoT or FotFF.
Based on the same equipment (see my armory), and using Sheet-Version 0.4.4, in a 15/51/5 Combat-Fist Build, Grim Toll is ahead of FotFF by about 8,7 dps and ahead of MoT by about 17,1 dps. Darkmoon Card: Greatness is still 24,2 dps ahead of GT.

Using the same sheet, the same equipment (only using 2x Webbed Death) and a 51/13/7 Mutilate Build, GT is behind DM: Greatness by 51,5 dps, behind FotFF by 27,48 dps and behind MoT by 16,5 dps.

So while the sheet confirms your evaluation of GT when using a Mutilate build, Grim Toll performs much better than one would expect with a Combat build. Still I don't understand it, because I would expect raw Attack Power to perform better than ArP. Anyone has an Idea how to explain it?

 

• Neto-

For what it's worth, you seem to have misread his post - he said that Grim Toll would not be good for Mutilate, which is exactly what your post concluded.

 

• Rerox

Yes, sorry, I misread "wouldn't".
I corrected my last post, thanks for pointing me to that mistake.

Anyway the numbers still keep me puzzled for Combat builds.