Why do you say that? It isn't surprising at all; Combat has much more damage that's mitigated by armor than Mutilate. For Mutilate, all your mitigated damage (read: damage that benefits from armor penetration) is 35% white damage and 20% Mutilate damage, total 55%. For Combat, you should be more like 45% white damage, 25% SS damage, 3% KSpree damage and 6% Eviscerate damage, off the top of my head. That makes for 79% damage that benefits from armor penetration - considerably more than 55%.

[Grim Toll] is also a lot overbudgeted if compared to [Mirror of Truth] and [Fury of the Five Flights], since, at best-case-scenario, you get 137.9 armor penetration and 83 hit rating, totalizing 220.9 itemization points, whereas the [Fury of the Five Flights] is 320 AP, or 160 itemization points, and the [Mirror of Truth] is 200 AP and 83 crit, or 183 itemization points. But that's a different story, and most likely the culprit for the results we're seeing here.

Basically: the issue here isn't that armor penetration is good, but rather, you get enough armor penetration to overcome its depleted value in comparison to AP. There's a 60.9 itemization points difference between Fury and Grim Toll, using best-case-scenario averages, which means that, were Fury itemized with Grim Toll's numbers, it would give you 441.8 AP instead of the 320 it currently gives. Obviously, Fury is already close to Grim Toll without that huge itemization buff, mostly because AP is a good stat and armor penetration is not; but the discrepancy in itemization is so big that it's not surprising that it beats Fury at all.

Hmm not sure exactly but that seems to be a very legit point, the question is for me again which fight is it optimal to use what trinkets. Assuming a perfect world and you have all three MoT, FoFF, and GT then would not it be reasonable to presume that there are particular fights where each of these may be more beneficial than the next. (*Assuming Combat)

If that is the case and i suspect it is i think it would come down to knowing which fights the proc from the trinket has the most effect for your dps. Lets just say Naxx full clear for example and take how each fight goes.

So really i think it would be possible to find a time where you should be using each and maximize your dps on a per fight/per trinket basis.

*my conclusion around how the trinkets work (*Friggin Furry warrior won Foff ) would be that you would use Grimm on any High armor moving fights and Use MoT on Moving low armor bosses and FoFF on stationary non moving fights.

did a misstake in my calculation.

+ 37dps changing the following:

15/51/5
2s/5r/4e
SnD Glyph (instead of BF)
Grim Toll
Wound Poison on both hands

Switching Webbed Death to Hailstorm (4/5 SwordSpec) and WP/DP is another 14dps more.

Im very sorry, was very tired and did some stupid misstakes in my previous post where I linked the roguecraft spreadsheet with my stats. I updated all obvious flaws I found from the first version.

diaz_combat2003v.xls - FileFront.com

I didn't include your changes Onkl, but I did note them and saw the result in the spreadsheet. Thanks!

On a sidenote though...even if the 2/5/4 rotation is stronger on paper...do anyone dare to analyze how it would work out in reality with encounters that requires some repositioning compared to a much easier 5/5?

Without any math involved here, the grim toll is nice for combat b/c it allows you to gem away from hit, plus adds that armor penetration for 80% of your damage or so, as stated above, but on top of just that, it allows you a trinket 'use' early on in the fight while you are waiting on buffs//debuffs (i.e. sunder armor, etc.) b/c by the time all the debuffs that are going to be put on your target are up, the armor pen really isnt helping anymore, or at least it might be slightly, but overlapping itself if that makes sense. And for mutilate it definitely is not worth it for reasons also mentioned above

Unless I'm grossly mistaken, pretty much nobody is gemming for hit as combat these days.

It's almost impossible to drop below special cap with available gear.

I myself use 3s/5r/5e and never have trouble keeping it up and 2s/5r/4e is basicly the same with slightly higher rupture uptime. With 5 CP spent on SnD you're going to clip it every cycle.
The thing I like about 3 finisher cycles is there flexibility. If you have to move or got a string of bad luck you can just skip eviscerate.

Having a Glyph of SS, Rupture and S&D along side the Imp S&D talent, a fellow Rogue on my server said that "If you aren't near the White Damage Hit cap, it seems a waist (mathematically to him) to use more than 1pt for S&D". He recommended the rotation of SS, (1pt)S&D, SSx5, (5pt)Rupture, SSx5, (5pt)Eviscerate [or Envenom'.

Does his calculations/assumptions hold any truth?

That's not a rotation.

He's making a very foolish mistake.
I'm guessing that he's dividing SnD's duration by the number of combo points spent and concluding that a 1 point SnD is the most "efficient."
He's entirely neglecting the energy cost. Relying on 1 pt SnD means more combo points for your eviscerate, but it means you spend more energy refreshing SnD.

That's not to say there aren't effective rotation that rely on 1 or 2 point SnD, but making a blanket statement that it's always a waste to use more than one combo point on SnD is just plain wrong.

So I've been trying to pull off 2s/5 or 3s/5r now and am finding it horribly frustrating. Why? Because of the periodic, completely unpredictable ability to refresh rupture at a time of my own choosing. And then sitting, waiting, sinister striking, hoping... and ultimately seeing the cycle fall apart.

A 3-finisher cycle -- per the spreadsheet -- would appear to give me lower dps, so I've been reluctant to switch. But the very point made in the quoted post has me thinking twice. With 3 finishers you can guarantee rupture will fade and never see the error. You can, similarly, not worry as much about CP procs. You'll simply get to the rupture faster if a bunch of procs occur early. And, with regard to the eviscerate, you can make a decision on re-applying the rupture about where to go. "Is there enough time for me to get an eviscerate in at all?" "How many points of evis can I get in?" Etc.

I'm going to try the 3-finisher cycle again this week and see how it feels by comparison.

Yes. This is highly annoying. I also use 3s/5r and find I cannot reapply rupture when it suits me. This happens a lot on fights like Thaddius where you can do ruptures under changing buffs.

So Patch came out today, and a new speadsheet came out a couple days ago.
I was wondering if anyone as mutilate who uses vulajins spreadsheet has been able to get a dps higher then 5157 on an undead target..

Thats is with the most ideal gear imo and buffs, only missing heroic presence, and the combat rogue/arms warrior melee buff. If you are able to top that pelase post and tell what Im doing wrong.

Thanks

Is it me or lag affecting heavily how you do on raid dummy? Prior I could stay within 2430unbuffed on Dummy and now I can't but it's prime time atm, so I dont know. Pre patch I could maintain close unbuffed to what sheet said 4.4 btw. Now I am barely able to stay at 2300ish after many tries.

edit: of course in another 10 min test I was able to stay at around 2470 avg dps. no idea lol

I am guessing you can. I am getting 4978 with my gear.

I got [Angry Dread] on one of my guilds first heroic naxx runs quickly followed by [Split Greathammer] a week or two later. I have been raiding with them for a couple of months now and have found them very competitive for both 15/51/5 and 7/51/13 combat builds. Not optimal but not awful either. If one drops for you and is an upgrade over what you have give some thought to it, don't just dismiss them because they are maces.

Even Vulajin's sheet (at least for my gear) is showing dual WD as better than WD/SR. I'd personally go with double WD, the only thing that changes from your pre patch setup is putting Instant MH and Deadly OH.

For what it's worth, Vulajin's spreadsheet, for my gear, shows Webbed Death MH Sinister Revenge OH to be superior to two Webbed Deaths with my current gear setup. It's a small dps increase (less than 10), but an increase nonetheless. I have not played with Aldriana's spreadsheet, so I don't know what difference, if any, that would make.

Including all buffs (without heroic presence) i reached 5221 dps with:
Race: Orc
Professions: LW/JC
Combat Duration: 0 (infinite)
MH: Webbed Death
OH: Sinister Revenge
Ranged: Envoy of Mortality
Head: Valorous Bonescythe Helmet
Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen
Shoulders: Valorous Bonescythe Pauldrons
Back: Drape of the Deadly Foe
Chest: Chestguard of the Recluse
Wrist: Thrusting Bands
Hands: Valorous Bonescythe Gauntlets
Waist: Stalk-Skin Belt
Legs: Valorous Bonescythe Legplates
Feet: Footwraps of Vile Deceit
Rings: Strong-Handed Ring, Surge Needle Ring
Trinkets: Darkmoon Card: Greatness, Fury of the Five Flights

Used optimal enchants, 3x Bright Dragon's Eye (head, blue socket; neck, blue socket; boots, yellow socket), 1x Glinting Monarch Topaz (hands, yellow socket) and Bright Scarlet Ruby in rest.

This was touched on heavilly a couple of pages back.

I can't seem to get the lethality flavour of combat build to move ahead of serrated blades version however I set it up.
I'm currently mainhanding Angry Dread with Widow's Fury off and a bastardised mace/sword spec (simply due to the weapons i've picked up).


I've tried:

Glyph change.
Moving point's around (1 or 2 points in imp SnD).
Completing 4pc set.
Speccing fist.
Moving to a x/y/z rotation over my s/r cycle.
With various combinations of the above.

Nothing seems to bring the Lethality flavour build ahead where a lot here seem to have it as top DPS. What seems to be the (assumed gear? Hence why it's here) determining factor as to where the switch (from Serrated Blades to Lethality) occurs?

A Lethality build won't start to pull ahead of Serrated Blades until very high gear levels. This is mostly due to requiring a certain level of crit, both through gear and from mainhanding a fist weapon (i.e. [Calamity's Grasp]). Obviously the exact threshold is difficult to determine, but playing around with the spreadsheet should give you a good idea of when to respec.

I did it with xS/yR/zE rotation with 3/5/5.

Used ss/rup/snd glyphs.